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Post by James Conant on Jan 10, 2015 5:01:44 GMT
As a kid I was a gun lover from watching the James Bond films and playing the video games. I had little to no interest nor knowledge in swords or ancient warfare, let alone anything of Asian origin. Silly as this sounds, what really awakened my love of swords/ancient weaponry was a game my friend had shown me. When I played Dynasty Warriors 3 for the first time I was baffled! Seeing these warriors fight in armor with spears, swords, and halberds blew my mind coming from just guns and "modern" arts of war. When I learned that it was loosely based on history, it began my dive into learning more. First it was all about European Knights, lances, longswords, and the lot. But what really blew me away, what really took hold to me, was the Asian culture of the warrior. As I started learning, I became consumed by a desire to learn more about the Samurai. This idea of a warrior culture built around a code of honor, and at the end, the sword they used. Never had I heard so much about a sword being held to such high esteem. From the craftsmanship to the legends surrounding the smiths, that legacy is something truly unique. Now I'm not a Katana elitist, rather, it's the admiration and attention to detail that draws me to it. My first sword I purchased was a cheap wallhanger from True Swords (little did I know what properties stainless steel meant to a blade). My naive mind thought that Stainless Steel just meant it wouldn't rust, and had no idea what steel quality and true forging was. From that point on my interest moved away from just history, but rather what swords were made of: the process, the steel quality, what that meant, and the process itself. I find it amusing because having taken the time to truly understand what goes into a sword, has led me to this forum; Even more amusing it was actually this site, which was much smaller at the time, that I learned I was not alone. So, the question is, why do you like swords? I like swords because through them I have learned more about culture, history, and the arts, than any school or standard education ever could.
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Post by Draven on Jan 11, 2015 2:05:57 GMT
I love fantasy, mythology and history; swords are often portrayed in a magical light in these things, having strength, power and even will of their own. Sigurd was able to kill the dragon only with the sword Gram, which was reforged by Regin. Excalibur granted King Arthur the right to rule. Narsil was a symbol of Aragorn's right to rule and the reforging of it was the reestablishment of the royal house. Some swords choose their owner; Gram was embedded in a tree and none could pull it out save Sigmund; King Arthur retrieved the Sword in the Stone. Javanese mythology holds that a Kris could be possessed by spirits, and some moved and killed of their own accord. In the Finnish Kalevala, after a life of misery and wrongdoing, Kullervo asks his sword if it will drink his blood. It responds in its own voice, 'Why should I not drink thy life-blood, blood of guilty Kullerwoinen, since I feast upon the worthy, drink the life-blood of the righteous?' While not a sword, in Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials' the knife Æsahættr shatters when its bearer has a moment of doubt in attempting to stab someone with it.
This fascinates me; the idea that swords are 'beings' in their own right capable of their own thoughts and actions and form something of a symbiotic relationship with their owner.
Simple military swords aren't particularly interesting for me and it seems there is a point in history where the person wielding the sword became much more important than the sword itself; that's where I lose interest. Any sword that is buried in an age of mysticism, folklore and magic (whether a fictional or historical age) is beautiful and inherently interesting to me.
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ShooterMike
VIP Reviewer
Senior Forumite
I like swords, and my snowman did too!
Posts: 9,094
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 12, 2015 15:50:48 GMT
The following is a bunch of rambling by a weirdo swordguy. If you don't want to read it, just skip down to ANSWER:
I fell in love with swords through movies at a very young age. When I was 6 we moved to a family farm and I discovered an ancient anvil left abandoned in an old barn. I proceeded to use that anvil and one of my dad's hammers to pound out a dozen or so different swords from pieces of the metal tubing my swing set was made of. The cross guards were made of old garden hose. Mom was not amused, but dad understood.
As I grew up, my interests in weapons of all types blossomed. I became a full-fledged hoplophile (literally "tool lover" or "weapon lover" in Greek). My interests focused tightly on firearms and knives through college and I became intensely focused on competitive shooting and tactical training.
It took until I was in my 40s and discovered the SBG and myArmoury websites to fully rekindle my interest in swords. But for a few years I mostly abandoned firearm training and pursuits, and focused intensely on swords. From perusing the internet classifieds and snatching up everything I could afford, to books and videos on medieval martial arts, I soaked up everything I could learn.
A few of the most fond sword-related memories I have are opening a box and holding my first real sword (a Gen2 Norman), then doing the same with my first real high-quality sword (an ATrim 1312 that I still have). There was some sort of intangible thrill that I find hard to describe, but you all know it well.
I think the most significant impressions were made on me by Peter Johnnson's writings and beautiful photographs of antique blades, as well as being fortunate enough to become good friends with Gus Trim and benefitting from his huge repository of knowledge of how swords actually work. Spending long hours on the phone with Gus over the years talking about things like proper mass distribution, curves and aesthetic considerations were an invaluable motivator to me in seeking the swordly perfection that I now know I'll never find.
I've become a lot less active in my swordly pursuits lately. But I still have the fire simmering, and it flares up fairly often. Especially when I read threads like this and it spurs me to recall my interest and activities with swords. I LOVE SWORDS!!!
ANSWER: To answer the OP's question, I think swords initially gained their elevated status because good ones were extremely difficult and expensive to make. They were the property of the powerful, influential, and in many cases wealthy elite. Everyone else had to make do with axes and clubs of various sorts. As steel became more economical and repeatable, every man wanted a sword. It identified him as a freeman able to bear the ultimate sidearm. It was functional and a symbol of power and self-determination. And love or admiration of those types of objects seem to be hardwired in human DNA. At least in that of the male of the species.
So in short, "Accept it. It's in our DNA. It always will be." In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if in 100 or 500 years, guys are still sitting around asking "So uh, why is it that we like swords so much?"
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Post by Germanic on Jan 15, 2015 1:39:16 GMT
ANSWER: To answer the OP's question, I think swords initially gained their elevated status because good ones were extremely difficult and expensive to make. They were the property of the powerful, influential, and in many cases wealthy elite. Everyone else had to make do with axes and clubs of various sorts. As steel became more economical and repeatable, every man wanted a sword. It identified him as a freeman able to bear the ultimate sidearm. It was functional and a symbol of power and self-determination. And love or admiration of those types of objects seem to be hardwired in human DNA. At least in that of the male of the species.
So in short, "Accept it. It's in our DNA. It always will be." In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if in 100 or 500 years, guys are still sitting around asking "So uh, why is it that we like swords so much?"
As an novice anthropologist and guy who knows crap that doesn't matter in real life, I will respond to this with my own ramblings!
I believe you're correct for the most part, however, I doubt that it's due to genetic factors that we like "swords" in particular. This is due to the fact that swords have only been around for only about 3,000 years or so, in some form or another. This isn't a long enough period of time IMO to evolve a propensity towards swords in particular. I do, however, think that a propensity to value an effective weapon is certainly engrained in our DNA.
I direct you to Otzi, the "Iceman" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi#Tools_and_equipment
He was heavily armed but was still likely murdered. This man lived over 5000 years ago, and he had a bow, a highly effective axe (for the time), and a knife, among other things.
You also have evidence that weapons have been used approximately 400,000 years ago:
www.bookofjoe.com/2005/05/worlds_oldest_w.html
It isn't agreed how long Humans in our current form have existed, but 500,000 years ago is a good estimate IMO.
In this case, I think you're absolutely correct that given this amount of time, if weapons have existed for this long, it could definitely become engrained in our psyches via genetics.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2015 1:49:17 GMT
... (censored) Sapiens ... This. This is why the censorship here is stupid. Latin is not offensive, lay off. Otherwise, interesting post. It certainly seems to fit that our ancestors favored the ability to make (or at least use) sharp tools and the like as valuable assets for reproduction. Obviously, as our species drifted between the carnivorous diet and the vegetarian approach, the ability to kill animals and retrieve as much good meat (and skin, among other things) from them was a very necessary skill for survival, for which we certainly are not naturally equipped. That we have historical evidence so far back of one guy having been killed by another using these tools certainly seems to enforce the point that these are valued parts of our existence. Makes one wonder what it was all for, though...maybe he wanted a bigger share of the beast? Anyway, I'd wager it's a primal thing for us, the desire to possess a sharp tool. I've been saying for a long time that the only thing separating us from other animals is our use of sharp tools and fire. No irony at all, then, that I carry a couple of knives and a lighter everywhere I go. Does that relate to swords? Of course it does. Sharp things don't just keep us above the other animals, they keep us above the "other guy," just as well. All else equal, the one with the bigger sharp object comes out on top, so naturally we like swords. They're pretty much the biggest sharp objects we have that aren't a pain to carry around.
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Post by Germanic on Jan 15, 2015 1:59:40 GMT
... (censored) Sapiens ... This. This is why the censorship here is stupid. Latin is not offensive, lay off. Otherwise, interesting post. It certainly seems to fit that our ancestors favored the ability to make (or at least use) sharp tools and the like as valuable assets for reproduction. Obviously, as our species drifted between the carnivorous diet and the vegetarian approach, the ability to kill animals and retrieve as much good meat (and skin, among other things) from them was a very necessary skill for survival, for which we certainly are not naturally equipped. That we have historical evidence so far back of one guy having been killed by another using these tools certainly seems to enforce the point that these are valued parts of our existence. Makes one wonder what it was all for, though...maybe he wanted a bigger share of the beast? Anyway, I'd wager it's a primal thing for us, the desire to possess a sharp tool. I've been saying for a long time that the only thing separating us from other animals is our use of sharp tools and fire. No irony at all, then, that I carry a couple of knives and a lighter everywhere I go. Does that relate to swords? Of course it does. Sharp things don't just keep us above the other animals, they keep us above the "other guy," just as well. All else equal, the one with the bigger sharp object comes out on top, so naturally we like swords. They're pretty much the biggest sharp objects we have that aren't a pain to carry around. :o Yes, I reviewed my post and realized that the phylogenetic nomenclature for our species was partially censored. I changed it to avoid confusion.
I like how you expand upon my post by citing the examples you used. Very nice points.
I also like how I'm not the only one who carries a knife (D2 steel folding knife) and a lighter when I am out and about. A sufficiently honed inclined plane, and a combustion device to create fire, are both incredibly effective for survival in any scenario.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2015 2:10:02 GMT
I feel naked if I don't have a minimum of two knives, my lighter, and a flashlight. Also a pen, because reasons. Ideally I have three or more knives (they have different roles; not going to cut my food with the same thing I just scraped dirt off my boot with) and a multitool, because when do you NOT need pliers or a screwdriver? Duh, when you have them. At work, though, just the box cutter plus two folders. Rules and all that. People think I'm crazy until I use one to help them.
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LiamBoyle
Member
Fechtmeister the Clueless of H.A.S.C.
Posts: 478
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Post by LiamBoyle on Jan 15, 2015 2:22:11 GMT
My grandfather once told me always have a good knife and a way to make fire eons ago when I was a young boy receiving my first swiss army knife.
I've always carried a knife and lighter since.
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Post by Afoo on Jan 15, 2015 2:56:34 GMT
You never realize how handy a knife is until you go without one for a day.
On the original question....part of the appeal of swords may be the fact that they are not only great works of art (as mentioned before), but also great works of engineering. It takes a lot of work and design to make a good sword - establishing the correct taper, finding the right materials, getting the weight and ergonomics just right etc. I mean, you could make a sword with the best materials, but that matters for nothing if the design isn't right. Likewise, you can start with low grade materials and eud up with a beautiful, great handling sword (ie: Katanas or the equivalent Euro pattern welded swords).
Other melee weapons such as spears and polearms tend not to have as much engineering and science put into them. A good piece of evidence for this is the evolution of the spear vs the sword. Over time, the design of swords has evolved significantly; starting from simple short swords through to cross-shaped arming swords to the rapier, cut-and-thrust sabre and ultimately the purely thrusting sabre. While the axe and spear have also evolved, none of them show the same level of refinement and development as the sword.
Long story short, the sword represents not only an artistic achievement, but a scientific one as well. Furthermore, its long history of development, evolution and change in a sense reflects upon the history of humanity as a whole. Each sword was built for a specific time and place in our history, and that is very much reflected in its design - for example the petite frame of a smallsword, the brutal stabbing point of a gladius, or the pomp and circumstance of a Victorian officer sword. A spear....is stil just a spear.
I guess my point is that a spear is a weapon. A sword is so much more. Work of art, marvel of engineering, memory of a bygone time.
~~
On a less sentimental note, sports such as fencing and kendo provide easy avenues through which people can become exposed to the swords and give them experiences which may turn them into sword collectors.
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Cory
Member
Posts: 17
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Post by Cory on Jan 18, 2015 4:20:49 GMT
One of my favorite toys as a kid was a plastic katana that was sold at Halloween stores, amusement parks, etc. I've just always liked katanas I guess.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 19, 2015 22:44:55 GMT
Got my first sword when I was about four and have been a sword junky ever since.
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