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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 20:54:14 GMT
As far as practical, you had it pretty much on the nose. Niku is all about durability. Hira blades are for slicing soft targets cleanly. A lot of the modern tameshigiri people prefer hira blades because of how clean and easy their cuts are. Assuming good edge alignment, a hira blade will slice through tatami like butter. I've used a thin blade a couple of times and it felt like cheating. It cut better than any expensive blade I've seen. However, it would bend on a bad cut and chip on a hard target. The flat blades are all about soft targets. You can cut bamboo with it, but experience says it'll chip sooner rather than later. I have the kissaki of a katana that chipped a little and I had to redo it because I got bold and tried to cut something harder than I should have. It looks fine now, but yeah... lol I prefer niku because of tradition and durability. You have to sharpen a blade with niku less. It also doesn't bend very much. On bad cuts it just send the target flying or the target gets stuck on the blade part way through. Also, to get the cut to do the initial "bite," you have to have good alignment. The tradition comes from battles where you'd accidentally hit edge to edge or hit armor or something. The niku blades lasted through that better. Sadly, I've only used one blade with real niku and I don't have access to it anymore (was a fellow school mates). You still haven't learned anything. Niku is not just for durability at all. Largely ignorant on your part.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 28, 2015 20:57:27 GMT
No. I'd say pretty much all Japanese knives are convexed to some extent. Plenty of Japanese kitchen knives aren't. Once-side flat grind with ridge-line (on one side) is very common (would be kata-kiriha-zukuri on a sword). The "flat" (i.e., un-ridged) side is slightly hollow. These are sharpened either flat all the way, or with a very small secondary bevel ("microbevel"). For the no-ridge blades, they can be either flat, hollow, or convex edged (I have all 3). The first two will have a smooth convex transition into the body of the blade, perhaps 1cm back from the edge. This is the case for both traditionally hand-forged blades, and the (good) machine-made versions.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 21:00:46 GMT
You still haven't learned anything. Niku is not just for durability at all. Largely ignorant on your part. Please, let's not resort to calling names. Assigning a property does not imply exclusivity.
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 21:02:29 GMT
No. I'd say pretty much all Japanese knives are convexed to some extent. Plenty of Japanese kitchen knives aren't. Once-side flat grind with ridge-line (on one side) is very common (would be kata-kiriha-zukuri on a sword). The "flat" (i.e., un-ridged) side is slightly hollow. These are sharpened either flat all the way, or with a very small secondary bevel ("microbevel"). For the no-ridge blades, they can be either flat, hollow, or convex edged (I have all 3). The first two will have a smooth convex transition into the body of the blade, perhaps 1cm back from the edge. This is the case for both traditionally hand-forged blades, and the (good) machine-made versions. Thank you. The general census is thought they don't add any unwanted beveling right? The profile of the grind dictates a purpose when cutting.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 28, 2015 21:05:41 GMT
Depends on what you cut. Cutting meat at low speeds, I find flat grind is best. Meat isn't sticky, and is fairly soft. Do you chop or draw when you cut meat? Me and my generation always draw meat with a convex blade and it's like cutting butter. Slice, of course, rather than chop. Usually pull-cut (i.e., draw), sometimes push-cut, depending on which knife, and the piece of meat in question. Some kitchen cutlery: My German 9" chef knife isn't shown, since it's living in my camping gear at the moment.
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 21:11:04 GMT
Do you chop or draw when you cut meat? Me and my generation always draw meat with a convex blade and it's like cutting butter. Slice, of course, rather than chop. Usually pull-cut (i.e., draw), sometimes push-cut, depending on which knife, and the piece of meat in question. Some kitchen cutlery: My German 9" chef knife isn't shown, since it's living in my camping gear at the moment. . Check out that big meat cleaver very nice knives. I see you mistreated the japanese knife as well. Look at the rust on those bottom 2 blades lol!
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 21:17:23 GMT
You still haven't learned anything. Niku is not just for durability at all. Largely ignorant on your part. Please, let's not resort to calling names. Assigning a property does not imply exclusivity. It was an ignorant statement and I'm not going to waste anymore time going into it.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 21:29:51 GMT
Good, to do so would be a waste of both of ours. The statement was not ignorant. If I were to say "I'm all about them katana," it wouldn't mean I'm exclusively about katana. I also own jian, dao, qiang, and a few other weapons.
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Post by skane on Oct 28, 2015 21:38:50 GMT
I cut a fair amount of tatami omote with production blades (~ 300 rolls in the past year). Mostly single rolls, although when checking and tuning a blade I'll cut double and fatter rolls. Here's my input... I'll just recap my observations on cutting tatami omote targets, not posting here to change any opinions.
My observation is that a blade with narrow entry angle (i.e. thin edge, little or no ha niku), symmetric cutting planes (omote and ura), light hira niku, distal taper, and a straight (lengthwise) ha slices tatami very well.
A narrow entry angle (thin edge) makes initial target separation easy (bite), light hira niku works to split and separate the material as it moves through it (splitting/popping) reducing contact with the back area of the cutting planes (low drag). After making good cuts (decent tenouchi, shibori, hasuji, kakudo, enkeisen, tip speed) with a blade that has hira niku, you can see a contact pattern on the ha area of the ji that makes most contact with the target.
Symmetric cutting planes and a straight ha help with keeping the blade tracking straight (blade won't "pull" off course). I think high shinogi can matter if the hira niku doesn't split the material enough to reduce contact on the ji (area between ha to shinogi) and shinogi ji (shinogi to mune).
To a lesser extent, I think distal taper also helps, because on a good slicing cut, initial contact is with inner portion of monouchi, and as the blade is pulled through the cut, the outer thinner portion of the monouchi follows, helping to reduce pinching and drag. A smoother finish/polish helps to reduce drag. A decent sori helps to increase slicing.
Again, just my observation after cutting a fair amount of tatami with a bunch of different production blades, not posting here to change anyone else's opinions...
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 21:39:17 GMT
Good, to do so would be a waste of both of ours. The statement was not ignorant. If I were to say "I'm all about them katana," it wouldn't mean I'm exclusively about katana. I also own jian, dao, qiang, and a few other weapons. Nah, it just annoyed me after all this debating you had to leave a statement saying 'niku is just for durability.'
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 21:40:50 GMT
I cut a fair amount of tatami omote with production blades (~ 300 rolls in the past year). Mostly single rolls, although when checking and tuning a blade I'll cut double and fatter rolls. Here's my input... I'll just recap my observations on cutting tatami omote targets, not posting here to change any opinions. My observation is that a blade with narrow entry angle (i.e. thin edge, little or no ha niku), symmetric cutting planes (omote and ura), light hira niku, distal taper, and a straight (lengthwise) ha slices tatami very well. A narrow entry angle (thin edge) makes initial target separation easy (bite), light hira niku works to split and separate the material as it moves through it (splitting/popping) reducing contact with the back area of the cutting planes (low drag). After making good cuts (decent tenouchi, shibori, hasuji, kakudo, enkeisen, tip speed) with a blade that has hira niku, you can see a contact pattern on the ha area of the ji that makes most contact with the target. Symmetric cutting planes and a straight ha help with keeping the blade tracking straight (blade won't "pull" off course). I think high shinogi can matter if the hira niku doesn't split the material enough to reduce contact on the ji (area between ha to shinogi) and shinogi ji (shinogi to mune). To a lesser extent, I think distal taper also helps, because on a good slicing cut, initial contact is with inner portion of monouchi, and as the blade is pulled through the cut, the outer thinner portion of the monouchi follows, helping to reduce pinching and drag. A smoother finish/polish helps to reduce drag. A decent sori helps to increase slicing. Again, just my observation after cutting a fair amount of tatami with a bunch of different production blades, not posting here to change anyone else's opinions... Very well worded. This is what I have observed as well.
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 21:42:19 GMT
That's just fact Skane. Thanks for the input.
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 21:43:13 GMT
I cut a fair amount of tatami omote with production blades (~ 300 rolls in the past year). Mostly single rolls, although when checking and tuning a blade I'll cut double and fatter rolls. Here's my input... I'll just recap my observations on cutting tatami omote targets, not posting here to change any opinions. My observation is that a blade with narrow entry angle (i.e. thin edge, little or no ha niku), symmetric cutting planes (omote and ura), light hira niku, distal taper, and a straight (lengthwise) ha slices tatami very well. A narrow entry angle (thin edge) makes initial target separation easy (bite), light hira niku works to split and separate the material as it moves through it (splitting/popping) reducing contact with the back area of the cutting planes (low drag). After making good cuts (decent tenouchi, shibori, hasuji, kakudo, enkeisen, tip speed) with a blade that has hira niku, you can see a contact pattern on the ha area of the ji that makes most contact with the target. Symmetric cutting planes and a straight ha help with keeping the blade tracking straight (blade won't "pull" off course). I think high shinogi can matter if the hira niku doesn't split the material enough to reduce contact on the ji (area between ha to shinogi) and shinogi ji (shinogi to mune). To a lesser extent, I think distal taper also helps, because on a good slicing cut, initial contact is with inner portion of monouchi, and as the blade is pulled through the cut, the outer thinner portion of the monouchi follows, helping to reduce pinching and drag. A smoother finish/polish helps to reduce drag. A decent sori helps to increase slicing. Again, just my observation after cutting a fair amount of tatami with a bunch of different production blades, not posting here to change anyone else's opinions... Very well worded. This is what I have observed as well. Dude, you've basically repeatedly said niku is pointless except for durability.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 21:43:36 GMT
Good, to do so would be a waste of both of ours. The statement was not ignorant. If I were to say "I'm all about them katana," it wouldn't mean I'm exclusively about katana. I also own jian, dao, qiang, and a few other weapons. Nah, it just annoyed me after all this debating you had to leave a statement saying 'niku is just for durability.' You are once again implying what isn't there. I never said just (which by definition means only) and instead listed a property which I prefer niku for. That explination was in the very post you quoted. I will cease responding to these types of accusations from now on. They are not productive and I can only try to inform you so many times before I should just give up.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 28, 2015 21:44:39 GMT
Check out that big meat cleaver :) very nice knives. I see you mistreated the japanese knife as well. Look at the rust on those bottom 2 blades lol! The 2 cleavers (Thai and Chinese), 2nd and 4th from bottom left, are my pumpkin/taro knives. Have a small French cleaver is storage as well. Don't have much call for cleavers. The large "cleaver" on top is a noodle knife, rather than a cleaver. The 2 on the bottom right are antiques I haven't cleaned and put into service yet (bottom right is Korean). Perhaps I should post these in a thread of their own.
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 21:49:18 GMT
Nah, it just annoyed me after all this debating you had to leave a statement saying 'niku is just for durability.' You are once again implying what isn't there. I never said just (which by definition means only) and instead listed a property which I prefer niku for. That explination was in the very post you quoted. I will cease responding to these types of accusations from now on. They are not productive and I can only try to inform you so many times before I should just give up. "Niku is all about durability" "I prefer niku because of tradition and durability".
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 21:52:22 GMT
Check out that big meat cleaver very nice knives. I see you mistreated the japanese knife as well. Look at the rust on those bottom 2 blades lol! The 2 cleavers (Thai and Chinese), 2nd and 4th from bottom left, are my pumpkin/taro knives. Have a small French cleaver is storage as well. Don't have much call for cleavers. The large "cleaver" on top is a noodle knife, rather than a cleaver. The 2 on the bottom right are antiques I haven't cleaned and put into service yet (bottom right is Korean). Perhaps I should post these in a thread of their own. . Good stuff. Perhaps give us down explaination about the grinds you put on them and there purpose as well.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 28, 2015 22:06:04 GMT
Wow, just exactly what did I miss while I was in calc class... 0_o
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Oct 28, 2015 23:09:16 GMT
It is all my fault Messenger, I briefly mentioned niku.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 28, 2015 23:25:22 GMT
It is all my fault Messenger, I briefly mentioned niku. Isn't just Niku a way of describing the shape of the profile/geometry of a katana's shinogi-ji and edge? What's there to get confused over? *Scratches head*
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