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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 6, 2015 21:07:27 GMT
Well, my laptop's been BSODing a lot lately, and despite me upgrading it to Windows 10 AND buying the (Expensive!) VIPRE antivirus program, my computer's been super-slow lately. T_T
As far as my own order with Even is concerned, he did get three things wrong with it ; the koiguchi, kurigata, and kojiri were all supposed to be brown horn, but are black instead. The saya, I also requested an ishime laquer for personal preference, but instead it is a gloss black that will no doubt be fuxed up by anything and show fingerprints very easily (dangit). And finally, the menuki I requested to be placed in the gyaku memuki placement on one's palms instead of the fingertips, but he apologized and told me that he forgot.
Everything else is looking very nice though, pending having it in my hands, I'll hold off on any real opinions.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Oct 8, 2015 18:42:37 GMT
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Post by Aurelius Talhoffer on Oct 28, 2015 12:16:47 GMT
Hello
Long time reader, first time poster here. I don't usually participate in forums, but for a long time I planned to register to SBG forum. What finally made me do it was my planned purchase of a katana from (surprise ) one of the chinese forges/ebay sellers. So I decided to check a few things first with the more experienced folks here.
First of all, I am primarily a European sword person. This is where my interests lie and most of my collection is European stuff. I do own 2 katanas and am perfectly happy with them. I think they are (for my particular preferences, which is only peripheral interest in katanas ) a perfect blend of quality and price. So to give you an idea what I consider to be "good enough" - I have 1 Ryumon Dragon katana as a more 'showy' piece and 1 Mushashi 70$ basic model to horse around with.
So lately I've decided I want a third katana, this one with a folded steel blade and clay tempered hamon. I know that folded steel is not some kind of miracle steel but I just like the wavy lines dammit! And I want one:). Real hamon kind of goes without saying...
This sort of limits my options. I browsed KOA, but I did not see a single model with that particular combination, and within my price range (up to 350$). As I've said, I'm not that into katanas so I do not want to spend more... I have two more custom jobs in the pipeline and some medical bills so...you know how it is
So I figure chinese forges seem like my best bet. Many of them, it seems, offer folded steel with real hamon, and as an added bonus, I get to choose my own fittings. I know that some people here think those fitting options are gaudy and maybe even tacky, but I kind of like some of them. Especially tsubas that feature plant motiffs. I like the dichtomy of a killing weapon and a serene flower tsubas and other fittings. So I first stumbled upon Ryan sword, read that people mostly have a really low opinion of them, so I broadened my search and came up with a few more. Right now I am looking closely into St Nihonto stuff.
I read this thread, up to page 23 - after that it just seems more of the same - so I have the gist of the debate, I hope. Rule no 1 seems to be 'don't go laminated' as it seems the forges cheat on those. Rule no 2 is 'ask plenty of informed questions' as that seems to impress the sellers to be less inclined to treat you like an ignorant and pass off sub par stuff.
Overall, my impression is that while not the best quality available, the better forges do make a solid job of it. My question would be - is it on the level of say my Ryumon Dragon katana? As I've said, I am perfectly happy with that one, and getting a new katana, with folded steel bladae and comparable overall fit and finish would be perfectly acceptable for me.
I have my eye on this model - link
with some custmization. One question I do have concerns the T10 steel. The sellers claims this katana is T10 folded steel. I have to admit I rarely saw T10 offered in folded variety. Is this a load of bull$$$? Cause if I am not mistaken, T10 seems to be the most highly thought of steel as far as durability is concerned - so if that's the case, how come more sellers aren't offering it? Can T10 even be folded at all? This is maybe a dumb question, but I am not terribly knowledgeable about this stuff.
Also, as far as durability is concerned, I know that modern steels made folding obsolete. Is folded steel as durable as other modern monosteels used for katanas (T10, 1095...), is it worse...? What can I expect from a folded steel katana as opposed to a monosteel katana?
So how about some advice for a rookie, ey?
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 12:54:08 GMT
Most people aren't sure if what they call T10 is actually T10 or marketed 1095. It doesn't make that big of a difference anyway, but due to the swords I have, I would say it's at least good steel.
As for folded vs unfolded, normally it's advised to go unfolded unless you know that the person making the blade won't have flaws in it. There is no performance difference between folded and unfolded. Folded is fine if you like the patterns.
Sheng (st-nihonto) has terrible customer service. If you buy from him, only buy stock, not custom or customized. I'd honestly avoid him and go for one of the better "forges." I would not buy that blade specifically because the color tends to rub off if you cut. If you just want one that looks pretty, go for it. Even-sword seems to have much better customer service but we don't know what kind of quality the swords have until messenger gets his. If ronin katana's blog is correct, just about any seller can get the same stuff so his should be fine.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Oct 28, 2015 13:03:29 GMT
On T10: Like laminations, it is hard to say for sure if that specific metal was actually used. It comes down to whether you trust the vendor. Sheng (the seller of your linked blade) is generally well thought of. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ On Colored blades: The pictures show a red/black blade. The colored finish on the blades tend to not be terribly durable. When sharpened or used you may end up with the silver of the steel peeking through. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The fittings: The copper fittings, which have an additional cost of 45 bucks tend to be much better than the alloy fittings. Probably worth springing the extra money for. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The wrap: The Ito is likely synthetic (rayon), as long as you are not expecting real silk you will be fine. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The seller: As said above, Sheng is generally well thought of, but you may have a longer than normal wait to actually get the blade in your hands. He can be difficult to reach for questions (after the sale has been made). He has been responsive to my detailed pre-sale questions. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Finally, on laminations: Of the 11 swords on hand, only 1 arrived (the first shipment) laminated. It was from Swordsmith668 (also sells under Hanbon). The rest were either returned for refund, or the seller later shipped a replacement laminated blade (once absolute proof they were not laminated was provided to the seller). If you are able to get your hands on an actual laminated blade, they tend to have nicer than average details; perhaps because only the more experienced sword smiths are tasked with making them.
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Post by Aurelius Talhoffer on Oct 28, 2015 13:26:49 GMT
Most people aren't sure if what they call T10 is actually T10 or marketed 1095. It doesn't make that big of a difference anyway, but due to the swords I have, I would say it's at least good steel. As for folded vs unfolded, normally it's advised to go unfolded unless you know that the person making the blade won't have flaws in it. There is no performance difference between folded and unfolded. Folded is fine if you like the patterns. Sheng (st-nihonto) has terrible customer service. If you buy from him, only buy stock, not custom or customized. I'd honestly avoid him and go for one of the better "forges." I would not buy that blade specifically because the color tends to rub off if you cut. If you just want one that looks pretty, go for it. Even-sword seems to have much better customer service but we don't know what kind of quality the swords have until messenger gets his. If ronin katana's blog is correct, just about any seller can get the same stuff so his should be fine.
I did not even realize that the blade on that katana is supposed to be red. I just thought it was some weird reflection going on. The photos are terrible quality btw.
I most certainly do not want a red blade, just an ordinary color. OK then, something like this: link
Apart from Even-sword (another ebay seller I presume?), which sellers would you recommend?
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Oct 28, 2015 13:36:55 GMT
Can you give some preferences? What kind of tip do you like on your swords (geometric or cosmetic). How much niku do you like in your blades? Pretty much all the Longquan sellers have (essentially) the same fittings, but do you want something atypical? What handle (tsuka) shape do you prefer? Do you have specific preferences in the sheath (saya)? Do you want the blade itself customized, or is a standard blade fine with you? Is it a blade to mostly admire, and rarely use, or is it a beater? Is a long wait (months) a problem? What are your hot buttons which make you strongly like/dislike a sword?
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Post by Aurelius Talhoffer on Oct 28, 2015 13:41:14 GMT
On T10: Like laminations, it is hard to say for sure if that specific metal was actually used. It comes down to whether you trust the vendor. Sheng (the seller of your linked blade) is generally well thought of. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ On Colored blades: The pictures show a red/black blade. The colored finish on the blades tend to not be terribly durable. When sharpened or used you may end up with the silver of the steel peeking through. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The fittings: The copper fittings, which have an additional cost of 45 bucks tend to be much better than the alloy fittings. Probably worth springing the extra money for. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The wrap: The Ito is likely synthetic (rayon), as long as you are not expecting real silk you will be fine. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The seller: As said above, Sheng is generally well thought of, but you may have a longer than normal wait to actually get the blade in your hands. He can be difficult to reach for questions (after the sale has been made). He has been responsive to my detailed pre-sale questions. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Finally, on laminations: Of the 11 swords on hand, only 1 arrived (the first shipment) laminated. It was from Swordsmith668 (also sells under Hanbon). The rest were either returned for refund, or the seller later shipped a replacement laminated blade (once absolute proof they were not laminated was provided to the seller). If you are able to get your hands on an actual laminated blade, they tend to have nicer than average details; perhaps because only the more experienced sword smiths are tasked with making them.
Re Sheng: So, is St Nihonto (sheng) trustworthy or not? Looks like Kiyoshi doesn't like him very much...
Re fittings I was actually planning on getting copper stuff - I like T 03, T10, T12. T22 is nice. Man, those photos are awful...I hardly see anything
Re blade color My bad...I failed to realize that that actually is red, I though it was some weird light reflection. I posted a different link above, for a model with normal blade: link
Re wrap Yeah, I kind of figured that it was not real silk. I believe my Dragon Ryumon katana is also synthetic, if so then this is fine for me
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Post by Aurelius Talhoffer on Oct 28, 2015 13:51:28 GMT
Can you give some preferences? What kind of tip do you like on your swords (geometric or cosmetic). How much niku do you like in your blades? Pretty much all the Longquan sellers have (essentially) the same fittings, but do you want something atypical? What handle (tsuka) shape do you prefer? Do you have specific preferences in the sheath (saya)? Do you want the blade itself customized, or is a standard blade fine with you? Is it a blade to mostly admire, and rarely use, or is it a beater? Is a long wait (months) a problem? What are your hot buttons which make you strongly like/dislike a sword?
Of course...here goes:
1. Geometric tip is prefered.
2. What is this "niku" you speak of? (sorry, I am not well versed in japanese katanas...) Google tells me it is some kind of blade thickness aspect? I cannot say I have a strong opinion on that either way.
3. Handle - I would like to have it waisted a bit, as far as I can tell, this is more authentic
4. Sheat - I already picked one of the stock models
5. I do not have to have a customized blade, one of the standard ones is fine. As long as the hamon is prominent, and the folded pattern fairly visible, I am good. Solidly sharp but not extra 'paper cutting' sharp preferred, barring that extra sharp is also acceptable.
6. It is to be admired (obviously ) and occasionally used for light cutting. I have a cheap 70$ beater for making a fool of myself:)
7. Yeah...I'd like to get the sword sooner. I am having some health problems and I am in a dark place. I need something to cheer me up..
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Oct 28, 2015 13:55:15 GMT
... Cause if I am not mistaken, T10 seems to be the most highly thought of steel as far as durability is concerned - so if that's the case, how come more sellers aren't offering it? Can T10 even be folded at all? This is maybe a dumb question, but I am not terribly knowledgeable about this stuff.
... T10 is not the best steel. As stated above it's very similar to 1095, in which its a pretty good steel when you DH. You get a tough spine and a good hard edge. If you want something tougher go S7 steel, much better edge holding go 3V, better resale value balinte L6 (also very tough and good edge holding). But I doubt you'll find ebay sellers from China selling S7, 3V, or real balinte L6. About T10 folded steel. I would worry about what is the steel folded with? 1045, pig iron, mystery steel, or is the T10 folded on it self? About St. Nihonto. Here is a quote from an EX Ryan Swords representative " ...this also applies to St. Nihonto and Swords of Northshire. If you didn't know....all of those swords are made by Ryansword...." Recommendation: www.ebay.com/itm/High-Quality-Shobu-Zukuri-Folded-Clay-Temperd-Hishi-Gami-Japanese-Sword-Katana-/271893484748?hash=item3f4e1d54cc:m:mxfHWk56V11YntJ6eGUnffA
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Oct 28, 2015 14:27:18 GMT
A kitchen knife is essentially a flat plane from the edge to the spine. It is great for slicing fruits and vegetables but is not suitable for hacking hard targets. Niku is where the plane bows outward from the edge to the spine to give the sword more meat/strength for heavy cutting (such as through semi-hard bamboo or bone). Most backyard cutters gain little benefit from having a blade with heavy niku, as it impairs how cleanly the blade slices typical backyard targets (bottles, pool noodles, mats). For a stock sword, with custom wrap, tsuba, fuchi, kashira; plan on about a month from ordering to arrival in many cases. Sadly, most ebay sellers do no produce beautiful wasp-waisted handles. However, ordering the handle made with Hishigami (paper triangles under the wrap), tends to put the wrapping of the handles in more experienced workers; this results in a tighter and better wrap. Hishigami costs 15 to 35 bucks extra through many sellers; some of them you have to explain what it is, as their English to Chinese translation programs don't parse out Japanese words well. The sellers I have found which do nicely waisted handles tend to do cosmetic tips, so I won't recommend them at this time.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 14:30:11 GMT
I don't like his practices. His swords are a step above blade wise compared to some, and, if you go standard and simple, his fittings are pretty normal.
Niku is meat on the cutting edge of the sword to help with durability. It isn't a very common feature and some who offer it can be hit or miss.
The sword you linked second looks alright if you like green. I've never been a fan of colored same. The blade looks pretty standard. Sheng normally has good blade geometry and the hamon looks good in that one. I don't see it running along the edge anywhere. It has a fairly decent tsuka shape too. It looks like it will fit your preferences but be weary, he can take a while to send your sword if he doesn't have it pre-built already.
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 15:36:43 GMT
A kitchen knife is essentially a flat plane from the edge to the spine. It is great for slicing fruits and vegetables but is not suitable for hacking hard targets. Niku is where the plane bows outward from the edge to the spine to give the sword more meat/strength for heavy cutting (such as through semi-hard bamboo or bone). Most backyard cutters gain little benefit from having a blade with heavy niku, as it impairs how cleanly the blade slices typical backyard targets (bottles, pool noodles, mats). For a stock sword, with custom wrap, tsuba, fuchi, kashira; plan on about a month from ordering to arrival in many cases. Sadly, most ebay sellers do no produce beautiful wasp-waisted handles. However, ordering the handle made with Hishigami (paper triangles under the wrap), tends to put the wrapping of the handles in more experienced workers; this results in a tighter and better wrap. Hishigami costs 15 to 35 bucks extra through many sellers; some of them you have to explain what it is, as their English to Chinese translation programs don't parse out Japanese words well. The sellers I have found which do nicely waisted handles tend to do cosmetic tips, so I won't recommend them at this time. A properly profiled katana with healthy niku will cut targets great if not better than a flat grind based on my own ability and experience. Flat grinds are ok but I suggest some sort of micro bevel so the edge doesn't deteriorate rapidly.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 15:46:27 GMT
Niku causes a bigger drag when cutting. It makes cutting soft targets more difficult than a flat blade.
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 28, 2015 15:56:37 GMT
No it doesn't, it splits the target apart during a cut due to the shape of the convex. We've been through this before and is also shown on the bugei link.
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Post by Aurelius Talhoffer on Oct 28, 2015 16:35:41 GMT
Wow. You have certainly given me a lot to think about.
The katana that DigsFossils-n-Knives suggested is really nice. I would get it in a heartbeat if only the fittings were customisable. Do you think that Huawei forge people would be willing to make a minimal customization - just the tsuba and associated metal parts with some stock parts other forges have if I contact them?
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Post by Aurelius Talhoffer on Oct 28, 2015 16:52:26 GMT
How does this model look to you? link
It's advertised as laminated blade, and I understand that this is most likely not so, for that price I'm perfectly happy with ordinary folded steel throughout. I like the hamon a little bit better on this model. On the other hand, the folded pattern seems less visible, which is a minus...
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 17:03:11 GMT
No it doesn't, it splits the target apart during a cut due to the shape of the convex. We've been through this before and is also shown on the bugei link. It's simple. It creates a wider angle. Any extra thickness near the edge will create one. If you read the article and look at the diagrams, you'd see that there is a larger angle. It can be seen with this image. Notice that the blade with niku has a larger angle. This angle means the blade must displace the material more which means more drag.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 28, 2015 17:07:43 GMT
How does this model look to you? link
It's advertised as laminated blade, and I understand that this is most likely not so, for that price I'm perfectly happy with ordinary folded steel throughout. I like the hamon a little bit better on this model. On the other hand, the folded pattern seems less visible, which is a minus...
It looks alright but something feels off, I just can't figure out what it is. If you like the fittings and can afford it, go for it. I personally wouldn't touch anything that claims to be laminated though. As to the grain, any mirror finished blade won't show it well. You have to look closely and even then it can be hard. You can buy one with a "hazuya" finish and it will show a little better. Etching also can help.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Oct 28, 2015 17:08:36 GMT
How does this model look to you? link
It's advertised as laminated blade, and I understand that this is most likely not so, for that price I'm perfectly happy with ordinary folded steel throughout. I like the hamon a little bit better on this model. On the other hand, the folded pattern seems less visible, which is a minus...
You can probably do better for less. It's a very good chance that it is not laminated, but it states it's 1060. So look for a 1060 DH and you'll probably find it for less.
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