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Post by Cottontail Customs on Sept 13, 2015 17:58:40 GMT
I don't think a "palm swell" like that has any place on a katana tsuka. There a number of ways to shape a tsuka and while I understand that asking these sellers to follow proper form based on style of blade and koshirae is asking a lot, they could at least follow some of the basic known shapes. What you're seeing in the top pic is the general lack of tsuka shaping knowledge shared by most of the ebay sellers. Pretty much every production katana manufacturer is still far behind on tsuka and koshirae construction compared to their abilities to make blades. It doesn't really matter to me personally since I wind up replacing or correcting these issues myself but at the same time, they charge for this which is a bit of a waste. This is why I often buy the blades in shirasaya if possible.
Even with these shortcomings, some are at least showing interest in trying to improve certain things and willingness to accommodate customer requests. They just need to do a little more research. People who think there hasn't been any progress in the Chinese independent sword market over the years are just not taking notice of what's out there lately.
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Post by danmasamori on Sept 13, 2015 19:33:25 GMT
Sorry, but that Shura tsuka is horrible, it looks "bloated".
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 13, 2015 20:05:38 GMT
I don't think a "palm swell" like that has any place on a katana tsuka. There a number of ways to shape a tsuka and while I understand that asking these sellers to follow proper form based on style of blade and koshirae is asking a lot, they could at least follow some of the basic known shapes. What you're seeing in the top pic is the general lack of tsuka shaping knowledge shared by most of the ebay sellers. Pretty much every production katana manufacturer is still far behind on tsuka and koshirae construction compared to their abilities to make blades. It doesn't really matter to me personally since I wind up replacing or correcting these issues myself but at the same time, they charge for this which is a bit of a waste. This is why I often buy the blades in shirasaya if possible. Even with these shortcomings, some are at least showing interest in trying to improve certain things and willingness to accommodate customer requests. They just need to do a little more research. People who think there hasn't been any progress in the Chinese independent sword market over the years are just not taking notice of what's out there lately. As a practitioner, most palm swells feel weird to me. The katana from sheng I got a while back had no swells, just waisting. They don't take into account menuki when shaping the tsuka though, so they can feel in the way. The other thing is that their tsuka are well shaped but I feel that the top of the oval shape is a bit sharp. I think if it was a more rounded shape it would be better. The bottom is the same as the top but I think it feels okay when the sharper oval is done at the bottom. How does this compare to tsuka you have shaped? Is there a specific cross section you go for?
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 13, 2015 20:15:49 GMT
The Cheness Shura katana was just thrown out there as an example of a palm swell - I myself care little for palm swells either, though some people do enjoy the feel of it in their hands.
And imho, a tsuka shape is somewhat unimportant, at least to me - now, before you go, "WTF is this noob thinking?", let me finish - there is no one universal tsuka shape that everyone will like, there will always be some people that prefer one specific style over another. That's why I find the shape of the tsuka to not be the most important thing of a katana - for me, where it's at is the blade.
Sure, it's something that I'll definitely consider when making a purchase, but it's no deal breaker - worst case scenario I make a new tsuka for it myself, or sand down the original to my own specs.
(And if I had to pick a specific tsuka style as my "favorite", I'd have to say a combination of Rikko and Morozori, to get both the flow of the blade's sori and a nicely accented waist.)
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 13, 2015 21:11:53 GMT
I can handle any shape but haichi is my favorite. Changing between different styles of bokken, from an iaito, and a shinken, all with pretty different tsuka shapes, has gotten to show me that style isn't as important but if I'm ordering a haichi shape, I'd like to get a comfortable one since I use mine almost daily. I find large swells under my fingers to be a bit uncomfortable. A well shaped one wouldn't be that way. That's why I ordered mine with no menuki.
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,336
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Post by Greg E on Sept 13, 2015 21:41:44 GMT
I had sold a Hanbon Unokubi katana to someone a few months ago. He just informed me that he was having his newer students use it in his dojo and the sword snapped under the habaki. He said a student hit the stand and it just broke. I never cut with my swords and so hadn't done anything with it since I bought it. I didn't take it apart to look at it and I am not sure that the person I sold it to did either before using it. I have asked him for pictures and a detailed description of what happened so I could share it on SBG.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 13, 2015 21:45:21 GMT
I had sold a Hanbon Unokubi katana to someone a few months ago. He just informed me that he was having students use it in his dojo and the sword snapped under the habaki. He said a student hit the stand and it just broke. I never cut with my swords and so hadn't done anything with it since I bought it. I didn't take it apart to look at it and I am not sure that the person I sold it to did either before using it. I have asked him for pictures and a detailed description of what happened so I could share it on SBG. Whoa, was everyone alright? I hope no one got hurt. But, if it snapped at the junction of the nakago, then there must have been something VERY wrong with the blade, possibly a major forging flaw. Do you know what type of blade it was? (Ie, Sanmai, Maru, Honsamani, etc?) If it was laminated, but done so poorly, then a trapped air pocket or lamination flaw could have contributed to the breakage. Also, how the student hit the stand may have played a part as well - were was the katana struck? What type of stand was it and what was it made of? Wood? Metal? Platic? Etc... Once you get some details, please be sure to post them up on here so we can (hopefully) get to the bottom of that.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 13, 2015 22:03:34 GMT
I would also think that if they tore notches in it like the picture you posted a couple pages back, that might play a role. It didn't look very structurally sound to me. I've cut with my st-nihonto sword and it has no problems that I am aware of. I've also never hit a stand or anything of similar hardness. I have had someone drop it onto dirt though.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 13, 2015 22:09:45 GMT
I would also think that if they tore notches in it like the picture you posted a couple pages back, that might play a role. It didn't look very structurally sound to me. I've cut with my st-nihonto sword and it has no problems that I am aware of. I've also never hit a stand or anything of similar hardness. I have had someone drop it onto dirt though. You mean this one?: Yeah, I hear you - having (DEEP) notches in the nakago-ana like that would likely compromise the katana's integrity, though pending on pictures of the broken sword in question, can't say conclusively that a poor nakago was the culprit. We'll have to wait and see. (BTW, do you have any good pics of your ST-Nihonto katana? I always enjoy seeing more sword porn, lol)
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 13, 2015 22:22:56 GMT
Yes, that picture. Lol. I have a couple but I wouldn't call them good. I'll post them when I get home. He still hasn't contacted me so I'll message him tomorrow if I don't hear anything. The pictures should be up in about 5 hours.
Edit: Do you mean the one I already have?
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 13, 2015 22:24:49 GMT
Yes, that picture. Lol. I have a couple but I wouldn't call them good. I'll post them when I get home. He still hasn't contacted me so I'll message him tomorrow if I don't hear anything. The pictures should be up in about 5 hours. Edit: Do you mean the one I already have? I believe so, yes, though I wouldn't mind seeing the in-progress one either. :)
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 13, 2015 22:31:50 GMT
The first one came really rusted because he didn't put a long enough sleeve on the blade and the tip went through. I polished it up and got this. Sorry for the quality, I took them at a high resolution but haven't downscaled them yet.
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,336
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Post by Greg E on Sept 13, 2015 22:34:34 GMT
I had sold a Hanbon Unokubi katana to someone a few months ago. He just informed me that he was having students use it in his dojo and the sword snapped under the habaki. He said a student hit the stand and it just broke. I never cut with my swords and so hadn't done anything with it since I bought it. I didn't take it apart to look at it and I am not sure that the person I sold it to did either before using it. I have asked him for pictures and a detailed description of what happened so I could share it on SBG. Whoa, was everyone alright? I hope no one got hurt. But, if it snapped at the junction of the nakago, then there must have been something VERY wrong with the blade, possibly a major forging flaw. Do you know what type of blade it was? (Ie, Sanmai, Maru, Honsamani, etc?) If it was laminated, but done so poorly, then a trapped air pocket or lamination flaw could have contributed to the breakage. Also, how the student hit the stand may have played a part as well - were was the katana struck? What type of stand was it and what was it made of? Wood? Metal? Platic? Etc... Once you get some details, please be sure to post them up on here so we can (hopefully) get to the bottom of that. It was a Maru 1095 blade. From what he said they had used it 3 different times and it broke on the 3rd time. Also, nobody was hurt. Once/if I get any more info, I will post it. So far he just wanted to know if I had used it before and who made it.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 13, 2015 22:35:03 GMT
Looks pretty nice - I like the simplicity of the koshirae, I get so tired of seeing gaudy katana. Shame that the kissaki arrived rusted, but I'm glad you got it polished out with little fuss and bother. :)
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 13, 2015 22:41:22 GMT
Thanks. He offered to take it back and polish it again but I really didn't want to go through the trouble. Instead I decided to give it my first attempt at a polish. I learned a lot that I will be applying in future attempts. I was originally going to get it redone by someone but after using it for a while (the thing weighs close to 5 lbs), I decided that size charts be damned, I was getting a sword less than 30/31 inches. Plus I wanted a sword with dimensions closer to some nihonto and my iaito.
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Post by danmasamori on Sept 13, 2015 22:42:01 GMT
I had sold a Hanbon Unokubi katana to someone a few months ago. He just informed me that he was having his newer students use it in his dojo and the sword snapped under the habaki. He said a student hit the stand and it just broke. I never cut with my swords and so hadn't done anything with it since I bought it. I didn't take it apart to look at it and I am not sure that the person I sold it to did either before using it. I have asked him for pictures and a detailed description of what happened so I could share it on SBG. Check the habaki fit, as I explained in a previous post in this thread, most ebay vendors use a "one size fits all" habaki. If the ha-machi extends out over the edge, this can cause a crack when the blade is exposed to cutting force or trauma. There is a reason it's called "The heart of the sword", this is often overlooked by Chinese forges.
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,336
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Post by Greg E on Sept 13, 2015 22:42:03 GMT
His post at SFI.. 'My student was the one that was guiding fellow students. His explanation of the incident. "These are the pictures of the sword, in the picture of the stand the large check was already present, it's the slight cut to the left of that one that is from the sword, we had been cutting and then the guy cutting was cutting kesa from the left and cut really steep, cutting through the mat and hitting the stand before the peg and the sword snapped at the habaki the lower part of the blade hitting the stand and the nagasa bounced away off the stand. the ha itself is unharmed. there aren't any chips or scratches at all. it was also cutting very well, having no problems and not bending, even when so of the kendo club members came in flat enough to stop the cut and when a slap happened."'
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Post by Kiyoshi on Sept 13, 2015 22:45:26 GMT
I wish there were some pictures of the sword sans tsuka. That would be a bit more informative I think.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Sept 13, 2015 22:52:37 GMT
Is there a specific cross section you go for? There is sometimes. I work on mostly typical production katana tsuka and most times there is only so much I can do to reshape them. I'm concerned mostly with adjusting the core to allow for a better aesthetic flow of the fittings and tsukamaki and making it safe to use rather than focusing on the proper shape and specs for the style of blade and f&k. Even when I'm carving a new core from scratch I am often limited in the historical and traditional accuracy I can achieve due to the fact that the client is the one providing the blade and fittings and they often don't match. When I have complete control and money is not an object (very rarely happens, lol) I will try my best to make sure the tsuka and fittings work well together and then yes, shape is even more important. In general, the mune of the core is wider than the ha. The shape is very specific all the way around the core and carving and shaping it properly is one of the most difficult things to do well. With every new core I make I'm learning something new and refining something I've been doing to be better and more accurate, when I can help it. Same thing applies to the saya. Anyone with a chisel and a plane can carve out a basic saya but doing it well is something craftsmen strive to achieve their entire careers. These things are MUCH harder than they might seem but I digress, we're talking about and dealing with a different animal here. For those that don't want to or can't remake the tsuka themselves or don't want to pay extra to have someone else do it for them, finding a seller/manufacturer that makes a decent one is very important for buying a well rounded sword. Some are getting the hang of it and not charging extra for every little thing like proper shape and hishigami and some are turning out what looks like chewed dog bones or a snake that ate a hippo and will charge for everything extra. I've mentioned it before but think twice before getting a full wrap or other features that they might not be proficient in making, even if they say they can do it. I've seen some nightmares before and some are making the tsuka weaker than it would have been without a full wrap by not doing it right.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Sept 13, 2015 22:53:42 GMT
I agree - some pictures of the internal structure of the blade would be helpful as well. The habaki fit actually looks prettydecent with that blade, though it's a little hard to tell - I don't see any huge gaps or anything.
Assuming the blade was DH, it the student had a REALLY bad swing and basically slapped the stand with the side of the blade, then I could see a break forming - 1095 is a relatively hard steel, making it much more brittle and susceptible to breaking than something like 1060 or 1045, as it has a much higher carbon content.
Still, I'll wait for more pictures before I go ahead and leap on what I think did it.
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