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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Aug 6, 2015 0:06:47 GMT
While I've never had any dealings with Ryan Swords myself, I do have a friend who owns a katana from them, and to date he's had no problems with his yet. It's been a while since I've seen his, but from what I remember, it seemed decent enough for the price - it certainly wasn't crap, but it wasn't no Shinken either. I DO think they've improved as of late, but I'd still be a little bit cautious with them either way. While a bit off topic, ebay forges HAVE evolved beyond simply choosing fittings or ito colours, now you can (supposedly) choose your own blade type entirely: www.ebay.com/itm/181745125970?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Others even (supposedly) offer better steel types too: www.ebay.com/itm/clay-tempered-japanese-samurai-katana-musashi-tsuba-functional-sword-L6-STEEL-/221348461948?hash=item3389657d7cFor what they're worth, in the end, they're like regular forges in a way; some good, some bad. There's potential to be burned, yes, but look carefully, and you might just find a diamond in the rough. :D
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 6, 2015 1:04:27 GMT
I am pretty much a blank slate on how I feel about E-Bay blades. The most simple solution was to sample many and see who produces a product worth the price. This way other newbies will know which stacked up well, and who produced products that were lower than the usual E-Bay fare. I am utterly unoffended by the opinions expressed here, they are all data points (assuming you actually bought the product). I have already seen some significant differences between different seller's blades, tsukamaki and fittings. There are clearly some differences to be found.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Aug 6, 2015 1:12:01 GMT
Right, as in the end, that's the way that ALL sword manufactures begin and start out - some people buy their products, and if they're good then word of mouth (or in this case, word of text) spreads, and the beginner customers try them out.
Granted, Ebay sellers will ALWAYS be a little bit risky, but all in all, I'd say that at least SOME of them have improved, and they're not all just the same, which to me is a good thing - more diversity always helps.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 6, 2015 2:35:48 GMT
IIRC you wanted to avoid the more well-known forges such as Hanbon, Huawei, and St Nihonto right? Rebranders and assembly houses.Not forges.Very few of the ebayers are actual forges.Most call themselves a forge and source their blades from whoever. I have to agree with Josh.Ive seen nothing from Ryansword that is special or above average,imo,not to say they are terrible. Ah yes I forgot about that. The truest forge would be Huanuo and Hanwei I suppose? I recall for example Zheng's forge (Ronin Katana's supplier) supplies so many other ebay and local vendors as well. Also I'd like to note that Lancelot Chan, who knows most of these forges, had said before that few Chinese forges really understand heat treat. With that caveat, I can only truly recommend the ones whose heat treat are proven (aka Hanwei, Huawei).
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 6, 2015 4:43:34 GMT
Firstly, you would have to understand that Chinese made katana are in their own class to begin with. They are obviously not Japanese made nihonto or even Japanese shinken, nor are they made by master non-Japanese smiths such as Howard Clark or Rick Barrett or Walter Sorrells. This doesn't mean they don't deserve to be counted as functional and even praise worthy swords. Within the Chinese market, there are many sub-divisions to be found and span the quality meter from barely functional to well balanced goto cutter for decades of reliable use. Some may see a katana as a whole or one-faceted object and might judge them this way but when you break them down to the many elements they are, you can see how different they can start to become. "This katana is good" or "this katana is bad". these statements don't describe a sword at all and leaves a lot of important questions unanswered.
The blade. Geometry, style, edge, polish, hi, hamon, heat treat, balance, historic accuracy. These are all important things that make a huge difference in whether a katana is actually good or bad for the price. They are often things that are easily overlooked by many. A lot of blades are lacking these features or they are done very poorly and the focus becomes how they can or cannot be abused in ridiculous ways or how ridiculously sharp they can be made. Two things that mean very little to the overall quality of a good katana.
The tsuka. The most overlooked feature of a typical Chinese made katana. They are almost an afterthought on most production katana and for good reason. People don't know how they should look or how they should be constructed and frankly, they don't really care. The focus is on the blade steel and other less important things I just mentioned above and the overall "cool" factor of the shiny parts and self chosen options as Mike noted earlier. Cheap construction, fittings, tsukamaki and samegawa all combine to make some pretty awful handles for these long razor blades we swing at anything we can. Some sellers/brands are just years behind the pack while some at least put a lot more thought and effort into them. Ryansword seems to produce some of the sloppiest of them imho while Hanwei (though sometimes large and shapeless) at least understands the basic principles and techniques. Yes, they are all still production pieces and suffer similar shortcomings much of the time but some much more than others. When I see five or more flaws in the tsuka alone, I start to consider the overall lack of knowledge and craftsmanship of the sword in general and will move on to another company to try and better my odds of getting a decent sword.
The fittings. Nearly all of the ebay sellers clad their swords in cheap and gaudy pot metal or zinc alloy crap that isn't worth 25 cents of the swords price. There are some that do offer at least iron tsuba but these are also either loosely fitted or smashed on with mallets. Cheap gear-toothed seppa from a decade ago are still being used on many of the ryansword models I see being purchased today. Ok, so the outrageously hideous giraffe habaki are not exclusive to ryansword, but they do use them a LOT. Poor fitting habaki is also something I see too often on their swords and on many other brands as well. Only a couple of sellers seem to get this right. Actually, one of the bigger name makers has more crooked habaki on average than anyone else, and usually on their more expensive models. No regard is paid to the style of the blade relating to the style of the koshirae on all ebay katana. Hanwei again at least does some research and puts thought into many of their designs. They also offer better quality products made from better quality materials and also offers exclusive designs and themes to set them apart from the "typical fittings barrel" that the others pull from. Wonder why their swords are more expensive?
The saya. I have seen those cheap balsa wood saya on many of the ebay swords that include wooden kurikata and thin rings of horn for the koiguchi and are usually done in a very sloppy way. The paint is thin and chips and dents easily and the sageo is the same exact piece of cheap ito used on the tsuka. The saya is a very important part of the sword and to cheap out on the thing that keeps your blade safe and you safe from the blade is a bad idea. They are also one of the more difficult things to make on your own so are not easily replaced like fittings or sageo. Hanwei uses many layers of better quality lacquer, anyone who has tried to strip one of their saya down would know how deep it goes, and they use higher quality parts and better construction and much better sageo. Rattle is an issue with many brands and if you find some without rattle, it probably isn't the brand as much as you just got lucky with the one sword. thicker, tougher lacquer and better reinforced koiguchi and a sageo that won't fray the first time you untie it can be had on production katana, just not on most ebay katana. I have actually been very impressed with most of these features on Huawei saya. They still use thin paint but the rest of the parts and construction have been at a higher level than many.
So again, when someone says they got a good ryansword katana, what exactly did they get? Something they are happy with because they weren't aware of what they consisted of or because they didn't care about anything but the color of the ito or how sharp they could make it with a belt sander? I hear a lot of people claim they have improved over the years. How did they improve? what things in particular? Are you talking about the rat-tail tang thing from 10 years ago? I personally don't see anything substantially improved upon. I'm not saying they haven't, I just haven't seen it yet. I invite anyone to show the difference or explain in detail what they feel has gotten better.
Despite what some might think, I'm not a ryansword hater. I just don't like people blowing things way out of proportion claiming they are the best being produced in China today or have the best heat treat of any other Chinese made katana or that they are perfect. Statements like these are ridiculous if they are meant as factual and not just opinions. There is absolutely nothing to back any of these claims up. They are average for the price. Nothing special, nothing different than a dozen other sellers. They do have an easy to navigate and use "build-it-yourself" format website which I can see being a plus to those who like to have some input in their sword. Still, just because you can choose your color or fittings or blade style doesn't make the final product any higher quality, you just might like it more. Which is just fine if it makes you happy. This shouldn't be confused for anything else though.
Rant? Focused hating? whatever, I'm just talking here, listen or don't. Doesn't really matter. These are my opinions based on my experience and my knowledge and might easily be different than your own and that's fine.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 6, 2015 5:58:48 GMT
Very eloquently put Josh. For those familiar with the Euro market, perhaps it's akin to the reputation of Deepeeka or even Windlass minus some models. You get something that looks like a sword. It's nice and shiny and you can definitely hang it on the wall for your friends to admire. But it would not be your go-to sword for, say, a cutting competition (a real tournament one). Or for contact sparring if blunt. And while some of their offerings can and will function to cut things up, it's not the superior choice in that price range. Still, some love their Deepeekas and Windlasses and I won't judge them for that (I myself own Windlass blades that look great and feel nice - I just wouldn't want to fight someone with, say an H/T using my Windlass).
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Post by LemuelTheLemur on Aug 7, 2015 0:56:56 GMT
I’m not so sure if the euro market and the japanese market are comparable. For euro swords there are only a handful of manufacturers, and besides cold steel rebranding windlass swords, and Valiant Armoury + Ronin sharing a forge, there’s little confusion over vendors rebranding a sword they didn’t make. Because there are less manufacturing names, there’s more accountability and consumers end up getting a better picture of quality put out by various manufacturers. Furthermore, almost all manufacturers stick to a narrow price bracket when offering products, making it easier to compare brands by overall quality vs price. Even people who like deepeeka and windlass realize there are better options out there, and wouldn’t compare it to a sword of a different league, like Albion. Feel free to tell me if I’m wrong, but I feel like the euro market is just a lot less shady than the japanese market.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 7, 2015 3:12:48 GMT
Actually you're probably right. Since the demand for Euro isn't that high, there's not a whole lot of hype in it. I think the only real controversy in the past was between top makers and it was mostly ego-driven and not so much fake marketing. Well, that and production issues.
It's actually a good point. Unlike with its Japanese and Chinese swords, for example, Hanwei does not really offer Euros that range from cheap and good value to high quality and expensive. My bad.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 9, 2015 0:15:31 GMT
Well the new Ryan arrived today. I will end up rolling it up in the multi-ebay-seller review. The long and short of it is straight forward. This sword had (at a modest additional cost) Hishigami added. So the tsuka-ito work is above the normal production work. The Ito is quite tight and does not move. The Samegawa (ray skin) was full wrap with medium sized nodes (larger than any other sword so far). The tsuka is "potato" shaped without significant taper in the middle. The Tsuba was tight. The saya has only minor rattle when aggressively shaken. The blade is straight. The last ten inches of the blade has very little Niku (appleseed edge). The blade did arrive unusually sharp, and had no problem cleanly slicing held paper. The hazuya polish is so-so, and in places does more to obscure the hamon than reveal it. However, I think it will be possible to improve the polish. The most problematic areas are at the Kozuka and Kogai (knife and pick in the saya). The fit for these do not allow them to be drawn when the sword is in the saya. Also, because of the complex cut-out for the Kozuka and Kogai, the koiguchi is plastic, where the rest of the saya parts are black horn. The actual Kozuka and Kogai need a bit of refinishing due to grind marks being clearly evident on them. Overall, satisfactory, but only due to the fact I can fix all of the critical problems.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 9, 2015 1:24:40 GMT
I'll hold off on asking any questions or making any comments until you finish your multi-sword review. Other than the following that is. The "hazuya" polish offered by any and all of the ebay sellers so far has been the same as far as I've seen. It is clearly not a true hazuya polish and does little to enhance the details of the hamon but instead, and as you've already stated, actually erases or obscures the details. It's kind of a reverse enhancement. Like many other features now available on these katana, it likely started with customer requests for hazuya or hadori techniques and in an effort to appease the customer, they wound up with what we see now. In my opinion, it's not worth the extra money and in fact, I specifically ask for a standard or tameshigiri polish on my custom ordered blades.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 9, 2015 1:45:57 GMT
Pretty soon I will try an unorthodox hybrid hazuya polish on some of these inexpensive Chinese blades. Because of their low cost, they are no harm no foul in my opinion. If it goes badly, just re-polish, re-etch and try again.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 9, 2015 3:36:23 GMT
The brands currently on hand to be compared are Hanwei, Kaze99, Lyueswords, RyanSwords, and soon ninja-katana (enroute). I am still struggling to find a reverse Kobuse that I like (and trust).
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 9, 2015 4:13:20 GMT
Pretty soon I will try an unorthodox hybrid hazuya polish on some of these inexpensive Chinese blades. Because of their low cost, they are no harm no foul in my opinion. If it goes badly, just re-polish, re-etch and try again. True. I'm not sure it will have as much of an effect as hoped. I think it's a step that's done after other stages of polishing or at least one that has more of a desired result when following other stages. It also might work better on folded steel or certain types of steel, though I'm really not sure about that. Worth a try though if you don't mind the work. I'm pretty curious how that would turn out.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Aug 9, 2015 4:14:38 GMT
While I may be meandering away from the original topic at hand, ie, Ryan Sword, but I'm actually going to bring up something else:
I'm currently in the middle of a commission with Tsunami Dragon, a China-based forge that seems to actually do quality work - here is a video (NOT MINE!!!) that a customer did of one of their works:
The reviewer doesn't give much (or ANY) specs or review format (>_< I would have liked to see some deatil), but from what I can see, it appears to be quality work. (The reviewer seems to be a bit of a meathead.)
While the forge owner isn't completely fluent in English, we can still communicate well enough to get our points across in a meaningful way. The forge owner is kind and helpful, and had made his own recommendations on what to NOT do for my own katana, and done so in a polite and meaningful manner - we're using L6 steel to forge, and it should be quite nice. (I plan on doing an in-depth review)
The point to all this? I wouldn't go so far as to say "Chinese-based forges are THE BEST IN THE WORLD!!!" or pure crap like that - certainly there are some that are absolute sh*t, but I wouldn't dismiss ALL of them as rubbish.
Again, I apologize for my off-topicness. XD
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 9, 2015 12:58:04 GMT
MessengerofDarkness, Do you have a link to Tsunami Dragon website? And yes, after "hearing" that the posted video, that guy should have his breeding rights revoked.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Aug 9, 2015 15:15:38 GMT
MessengerofDarkness, Do you have a link to Tsunami Dragon website? And yes, after "hearing" that the posted video, that guy should have his breeding rights revoked.
lol Yeah, I don't wanna see any little versions of him running around. ^_^ (I posted it just for the sword, not the dude.) Anyways, the forge owner in question has two separate ebay pages, both of which are extensions of each other - here's the first, main one: www.ebay.com/usr/tsunami-dragon?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2754Here's the second: www.ebay.com/usr/even-sword?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2754I've checked, and both are owned by the same gentleman - they offer listing from more basic monotempered katana to a wide variety of differentially hardened katana. (Of course, many do nowadays, but he seems to be in good standings with his reviewers.) The custom one I will be receiving will look something like this: www.ebay.com/itm/281701436489?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT But with a batter saya, different colour sageo, hishigami used in the ito wrap, and koshi zori in the blade.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Aug 9, 2015 15:30:11 GMT
I did want to avoid the better known sellers. But in looking for a reverse kobuse, it may force me to go with either someone already ordered from, or one of the better reputed sellers. So far, I only have one repeat, and it was purchased to see if the first sword ordered (which was quite good) was a fluke, or the way they normally do business. So far, nobody has produced a truly crisp yokote. I doubt Hanbon has a reverse kobuse
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 9, 2015 15:48:21 GMT
Even sword? That's st nihonto.
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Post by Tavx on Aug 9, 2015 17:47:23 GMT
Based on their ebay photos and what I have read here, St-Nihonto, Even-Sword, Tsunami-Dragon, and Shinken-Katana are all the same forge. How many names do they sell under? Here are ads for the same L6 sword from them, the Tsunami-Dragon one says even-sword on all pictures. www.ebay.com/itm/40-6-BATTLE-READY-JAPANESE-FULL-TANG-KATANA-QUENCHED-L6-STEEL-BLADE-SWORD-/111672549289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a0033dfa9www.ebay.com/itm/functional-japanse-samurai-katana-cyclone-tsuba-sword-L6steel-supreme-sharp-edge-/171769311812?hash=item27fe3fb244www.ebay.com/itm/40-6-BATTLE-READY-JAPANESE-FULL-TANG-KATANA-QUENCHED-L6-STEEL-BLADE-SWORD-/321336061988?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad11f3024Edit: to stay on topic, I have a Ryan Sword and I can say that I was very disappointed with their quality. They aren't terrible by any means, but they are not very good. My Ryan Sword was purchased as honsanmai, but they did such a poor job that without cutting it open, I can't be 100% sure, but it might be a very poorly executed lamination.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 9, 2015 17:57:31 GMT
I thought I was over the Chinese forges stealing pictures from others and slamming their on watermark on those... guess not. Thought they would be wiser by now. I personally wouldn't recommend Even-sword, St-nihonto (or whatever sells those), as it's very dishonest to steal pictures from others. Makes me quite angry that they won't spend that little time to make their own pics.
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