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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2007 22:33:38 GMT
I have read that traditionally Chinese swords could be either through hardened or differently hardened. I currently have very little Chinese martial arts training but I am hoping to change that soon. I know the main pros and cons of each but Chinese swordsmanship is very different to Japanese so perhaps one is better suited. For Chinese swordsmanship which would be best way to go, through hardened or differently hardened?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2007 22:38:11 GMT
Good question. Though I like the designs and theories behind Chinese weaponry, I know very little about them. I've always leaned more towards Japanese styles, but some of the Chinese weapons are beautiful. Some more info on them would be great, and would help in making an informed purchase.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 3:12:56 GMT
In Chinese Craftsmanship on Swords (Jian) and Broadswords (Dao) the guard or Hu Shou is a mean to protect the hand from other swords in combat. If opponent strikes down along your blade wanting to cut your arm, the guard would protect you from such cuts.
I LOVE broadswords, it is broad for a purpose of blocking ( Can also distract your opponent by reflecting light in their eyes ;D )
Modern Day WuShu uses aluminum swords as they suit the Martial Arts better as Chinese Martial Arts are more 'fluid' and moves with each body movements.
So a swift and flexible sword is always prior to a brittle sword.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 3:57:32 GMT
Dao are you saying you would choose a differently hardened blade? I don't think that through hardened blades are brittle unless they are poorly and or heat treated. Dose any one know what some of the masters in China use for their swords?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 4:31:33 GMT
I have read that traditionally Chinese swords could be either through hardened or differently hardened. I currently have very little Chinese martial arts training but I am hoping to change that soon. I know the main pros and cons of each but Chinese swordsmanship is very different to Japanese so perhaps one is better suited. For Chinese swordsmanship which would be best way to go, through hardened or differently hardened? Chinese swords work the same as Japanese swords. For those looking for practicality, through hardened is the best choice. If you're more of a collector looking for historical accuracy then it depends on whether you're looking at a jian or a dao. Jian were typically done in san-mai lamination. Dao have a multitude of options...some were done in san-mai, some were done with inserted edges and then differentially hardened. In WWII there were some through hardened da dao as well. There is a big price jump between through hardened and traditionally constructed Chinese swords. I'd say unless you really strive for historical accuracy, go for through hardened. According to Scott Rodell there isn't a lot of difference in the feeling unless you've handle lots of antiques like he has. edit: the modern masters in China use wushu swords. It's not common for Chinese martial artists to use live blades. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 20:33:41 GMT
Actually WuShu teachers in China use WuShu aluminum swords because they are affordable and were practiced in Competitions throughout China.
I would really use a sharpened spring steel dao rather than a brittle one.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 0:57:59 GMT
It is a shame that the masters in China do not use the "real deal". I like the way you think Dao, I too would train with a real sharpened sword over an aluminum one once I am good enough with a wooden one that I am not going to cut my own head off, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2007 21:06:49 GMT
edit: the modern masters in China use wushu swords. It's not common for Chinese martial artists to use live blades. Actually, that's only because most of the modern "mainstream" masters that actually get publicized are wushu masters. I know that there are a lot of "masters" who claim to be trained at the shaolin temples, but are really just from wushu schools surrounding the temple at Song Shan. However, there are many more traditional sifus (like my sifu and his sifu) who only practice with live blades. Wushu steel, although very flexible, also tends to be very weak. From personal experience, just dropping the blade can make it permanently bent, and any type of sword on sword contact (which is common when doing 2 person dao forms) will often result in chipped blades. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2007 7:27:59 GMT
Actually, that's only because most of the modern "mainstream" masters that actually get publicized are wushu masters. I know that there are a lot of "masters" who claim to be trained at the shaolin temples, but are really just from wushu schools surrounding the temple at Song Shan. However, there are many more traditional sifus (like my sifu and his sifu) who only practice with live blades. Wushu steel, although very flexible, also tends to be very weak. From personal experience, just dropping the blade can make it permanently bent, and any type of sword on sword contact (which is common when doing 2 person dao forms) will often result in chipped blades. Congratulations, you're very lucky to find such a sifu. I have yet to find one in my city. I left a school once though because the instructor forbid me from freesparring with a fellow student. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2007 16:41:51 GMT
edit: the modern masters in China use wushu swords. It's not common for Chinese martial artists to use live blades. Actually, that's only because most of the modern "mainstream" masters that actually get publicized are wushu masters. I know that there are a lot of "masters" who claim to be trained at the shaolin temples, but are really just from wushu schools surrounding the temple at Song Shan. However, there are many more traditional sifus (like my sifu and his sifu) who only practice with live blades. Wushu steel, although very flexible, also tends to be very weak. From personal experience, just dropping the blade can make it permanently bent, and any type of sword on sword contact (which is common when doing 2 person dao forms) will often result in chipped blades. I think this so called 'Wushu steel' is misleading people... 'Wushu steel' will NOT affect a person's performance. If you hand over a live blade to any Wushu practitioners, they would be able to pick it up very quickly. 'Wushu steel' is so flexible is because it resembles the flexibility of Wushu. 'Wushu steel is cheap to manufacture, maintain good condition and does not rust easy. 'Wushu steel' would not bend if dropped. And any blade contact would result in chipped edges if the two blades are equal in quality. So why doesn't teachers in China teach with wooden weaponries? Wood is very light in weight, wood is not practiced with the fear of cutting one's self, so students lacks focus. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2007 18:24:16 GMT
if it is so flexible then of course it will affect a person's performance because real swords don't have that much play in the blade.
wood isn't as light as you think it is and wushu swords won't cut you either. if there is a lack of focus whether you're using wood or steel, the sword is not the problem it's the student.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2007 20:50:56 GMT
I think this so called 'Wushu steel' is misleading people... 'Wushu steel' will NOT affect a person's performance. If you hand over a live blade to any Wushu practitioners, they would be able to pick it up very quickly. 'Wushu steel' is so flexible is because it resembles the flexibility of Wushu. 'Wushu steel is cheap to manufacture, maintain good condition and does not rust easy. 'Wushu steel' would not bend if dropped. And any blade contact would result in chipped edges if the two blades are equal in quality. So why doesn't teachers in China teach with wooden weaponries? Wood is very light in weight, wood is not practiced with the fear of cutting one's self, so students lacks focus. Actually, I perform my forms very differently with a wushu blade than my traditional one. The wushu steel is about twice as light, making it faster than the traditional. Also, I've seen about 4 or 5 wushu daos bend when dropped, blade first. As for two person forms, students are taught to strike blade on blade with control and restraint. None of our school's traditional blades have ever chipped during these forms. The wushu steel began to chip so much that they are now basically banned from our studio. Also, I fail to see the point you're trying to make with wooden swords. I've never seen anybody cut themself with a traditional dao or gim, mostly because at our school, weapons training is reserved for higher level students. When a student is trained in their first weapon, they've already cultivated the skill and control necessary to practice it efficiently. And like garretc said, wushu steel doesn't cut either, and neither do unsharpened traditional blades (which many people do use). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2007 0:07:00 GMT
Oh.. I forgot to mention the competition point of view on the so called 'Wushu blades' Wushu performances are judged on many aspects so I won't mention each and every of them... But I'll point out the advantage having a flexible blade than a brittle one. One key to get 'points' from judges in Wushu competition is to perform a clean move between each consecutive movements (as you see in Wushu, moves follow by a pause and continues). Once 'paused' for just one second in a performance; will determine how balanced and skillful you are. What I mean is after a move has set, your arm should not wobble and depends on how much strength you are putting into the performance. A wobble blade means alot of power behind the move. A non-wobble blade means a quick yet lighting reflex to the move. So practicing with 'wobbly Wushu blades' does have a meaning behind it. I practice with wobble blades and it helps me alot on movements, a live blade would help me alot on concentration and experience handling a blade. Hope this clarify things up a bit. Example for my explanation: Watch this Chen "Style" Taiji Single Dao form as Teacher Chen "Fa Li" (Sending Power). |
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Dec 9, 2007 6:04:36 GMT
If you want to study swordsmanship wushu steel is uselees.
Wushu steel is only good for competition. A form used in competition is more like a dance then martial. Competition form as regulations and the character of the broadsword routines as changed with an increasing trend towards speed and difficulty and because of that, the weight needed to decrease.
Because wushu steel is so light you could do moves that you could not do or would not do with a real sword.
Dao what do you mean by a brittle one? My real daos are far from brittle.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2007 10:07:50 GMT
dao, I also don't really understand what you mean by flexible vs. brittle.
I understand the advantages wushu swords have for wushu practitioners, but I'm not sure what they have to offer for the traditional arts because that's quite a different thing altogether. My opinion is wushu swords should stay in wushu.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2007 13:12:17 GMT
If you want to study swordsmanship wushu steel is uselees. Wushu steel is only good for competition. A form used in competition is more like a dance then martial. Competition form as regulations and the character of the broadsword routines as changed with an increasing trend towards speed and difficulty and because of that, the weight needed to decrease. Because wushu steel is so light you could do moves that you could not do or would not do with a real sword. Dao what do you mean by a brittle one? My real daos are far from brittle. In the street of China back in historical times, people don't usually wear armors and the high class warriors ride horses. So a light weighted weapon is ideal for combat on the ground or on horse back. What I mean by Brittle swords is those swords cannot wobble when performing. Another good thing with the Wobble swords is that the young and old people can handle the weight. Garrett, what do you mean by Wushu swords should stay in Wushu? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2007 16:17:55 GMT
Yeah but those wushu swords throw off the mechanics of your forms when you pick up a real chinese sword, whether it be dao or jian. Having handled and used both i have to say that i absolutely loathe those wushu swords, even when using them for the purpose they were designed. I would prefer to use a real sword then a crappy imitation aluminium piece of crap. My forms get sloppy and imprecise when i use the wushu blades because they pose no threat to me or anyone else. Using a proper sword means that i have to be very aware of where the blade is at all times. I hate the fact that wushu swords are unrealistically weighted and i don't practice my forms for competitions i practice them for health and ability.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2007 22:41:43 GMT
I don't see the point of "wushu" swords I concur with you bloodbath these unrealistically weighted sword put you off. The forms and teqnigues where designed a long time ago by masters who used real swords not aluminum ones, it is like on most Kung Fu movies how the swords bend nearly 90 degrees and stuff real swords are stiffer and will not bend anywhere near that much. People do not give blunt blades the same respect as their sharpened counter parts, so by using crapping imitations you are only hurting your self in the long run if you ever want to use a real sword. I believe Chopchop once said that if the sword is to heavy the sword is not the problem, the problem is that your arm is not strong enough or something along those lines. E really hit the nail on the head on that one.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2007 23:42:43 GMT
In the street of China back in historical times, people don't usually wear armors and the high class warriors ride horses. So a light weighted weapon is ideal for combat on the ground or on horse back. What I mean by Brittle swords is those swords cannot wobble when performing. Another good thing with the Wobble swords is that the young and old people can handle the weight. Garrett, what do you mean by Wushu swords should stay in Wushu? A sword that doesn't flop and wobble doesn't mean it's brittle...good Chinese swords are resilient and well balanced. Paul's destructive tests should have proved that... When I see a skilled practitioner using a real blade I am given a good impression of power and feel for the blade. Wushu swords give me a sense of tin foil attached to an arm that is going very fast. It gives me the feeling the sword is just there; just there to look nice and shiny. young and old people can handle the weight of a wooden sword I presume. The reason why people use wushu swords is because they look flashier than their wooden counterparts. Why wushu swords should stay in wushu? Because wushu swords are designed for wushu purposes. They do not serve the traditional Chinese martial arts very well. Unfortunately, wushu weapons have made their way into most Chinese martial arts. This is what I am strying to stop; I believe it's not yet a lost cause. ;D |
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Post by rammstein on Dec 9, 2007 23:54:12 GMT
Karma!
I laugh every time I see the silly pseudo kung fu demonstrations with swords more flexible than a contortionist.
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