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Post by atrixnet on Nov 20, 2014 0:14:45 GMT
To best learn the ways of the samurai, what discipline should I seek after and train in?
It seems like there's shinkendo, kendo, iado, battoudo... what else? Please, by all means, be opinionated and biased as possible in your responses.
To help narrow it down, I want to participate in a discipline that let's me cut up stuff, and spar. But those goals might not be really what I want in the long run. Beginners don't ever know what they really want (day 1: I want to jump off the highest platform at the deep end)
Guide me, oh great ones!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 0:59:46 GMT
OK, let's start with what kind of options do you have in your current area, and what gets you the most excited?
I wouldn't worry so much about cutting. Save up $100.00 or whatever the current rate is, and you can order the mats yourself any old time you feel like it. You don't need to have an official dojo event if you have the need to slice and dice. You should have a fairly solid handle on whatever techniques you're working if the object is to use the cutting to inform your practice. If it's just a matter of cutting for the fun of it, then that doesn't even matter. Just go nuts and try not to hurt yourself or anyone else. Target cutting is not the end-all-be-all of swordsmanship.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying something and discovering you'd rather take your studies elsewhere. You might start out obsessed with katana cutting or whatever and discover that naginata or tessen or something light your fire after you get exposure to it. Habitually stomping off everytime something shiny catches your eye is probably a bad idea, but you should not feel especially obligated just because you visited a class once or twice.
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Post by justin520 on Nov 20, 2014 1:20:08 GMT
This is absolutely great advice, I started off obsessed with katana use, but as my interests grue I found myself much more interested in kodachi, jutte, kusari fundo, and tanto. You will find a niche with so many weapons available. Katana is not the be all end all, for instance the use of a jo and tanto can beat the katana and were often a more popular choice for ronin who were poor and required easy low maintenance arms. Temple guards prefered kusari fundo because spilling blood at temples was not cool, so they focused their training to weapons that don't cause blood letting. Samurai that functioned as civilian police preferred jutte, so on and so forth.
Samurai fighting weapons are vast and expansive.
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Post by justin520 on Nov 20, 2014 1:23:05 GMT
My personal reasons for jutte and tanto were that they are more practical in modern settings, they apply to expandable batons and other knives. You might have other reasons for choosing other weapons.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 20, 2014 1:27:54 GMT
If you mean that question literally, don't forget horsemanship and archery. And unarmed martial arts such as Japanese jujutsu, or perhaps aikido (a large part of aikido is unarmed versus sword, although usually taught as unarmed versus non-optimal unarmed attacks). And swimming in armour.
But if you're happy with swordsmanship, rather than the full samurai experience, I don't have anything to add to Jon's answer above.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Nov 20, 2014 1:47:41 GMT
As an avid Aikido and Iaido practitioner of many years, the above advice (and others I didn't quote) are things you really need to consider. A great way to start would be ideally to go to as many dojos as you could, researching them/instructors, and choosing the one (or ones) that made the most sense to you. There's an old saying: "you can't serve 2 masters", but I disagree, as long as the 2 masters/arts are compatible with one another, they should actually complement each other. At least, that's been my experience with learning Aikido at one dojo, and studying Iaido with a different Sensei at another dojo. Here's a really good dojo worth looking into if you live nearby or can travel to: tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 20, 2014 2:12:55 GMT
So much good advice I am going to have to read it all again to absorb it. Two follow up questions I guess. First would be, what discipline is going to let me use a sword the most? Secondly, does anyone have any opinions to offer on this dojo? dentondojo.com/iaido/Currently leaning to Iado and Aikido both, based on my research. Information on Iado on the internet is scarce and mixed. I don't know what to trust.
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Post by johnwalter on Nov 20, 2014 2:33:04 GMT
Great advice from Mr.Frances. I would echo that. Also if you wish formal training,based on what you said,I would suggest seeing if there is a Toyama Ryu or Nakamura Ryu dojo near you.Cutting and usually some type of sparring are a part of the training. Whatever you decide just be safe.And good luck. As for whats best,I would say learn whatever you have the oppurtunity to learn as best you can.That is all you can do
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 20, 2014 4:05:34 GMT
Quick and simple advice: re. swords...learn kenjutsu. If you can find a copy of F.Lovret's "Kenjutsu Shodan" And if your free time is short, go to the closest Dojo that teaches traditional sword.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 4:32:54 GMT
You could always get your MBA and become an administrative samurai! XD Yabusame does look like fun though.
I do not have any experience with Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido or that particular dojo, but from what I can read on it from a very quick glance it looks like it would be a very interesting path of study. If it is nearby, see if it would be ok to visit - you should be able to tell within a short amount of time if it looks like something you want to be part of.
If you have the opportunity to visit multiple places, see them all. Look at what they do, is it interesting to you? Look at the people performing, do they move like you would like to move? Your initial impressions will probably change over time, but if it doesn't grab you in some way it's not likely to stick. If you take up the study, you'll develop an eye for nuance, but if you aren't interested in the first place it isn't likely to happen.
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Post by Krelian on Nov 20, 2014 7:28:26 GMT
Our fellow forum members have given a lot of good advice so I'm just gonna maybe add a little bit but mostly reiterate what they've already said. If you want to train like an idealized samurai of old you'll need to take up a good number of very diverse martial arts to really come close. Long sword (ken-), short sword/dagger (tanto-), archery (kyu-), horsemanship, sword and/or archery on horseback (yabusame), staff (jo-), halberd (naginata-), and jujutsu just to name a few; not to mention the possible additions of spear (so-), truncheon (jitte-), fan (tessen-), rope (hojo-), throwing (shuriken-), and those are just off the top of my head. It seems to me your primary interest is with swords so it's definitely best to start there. Iai, kenjutsu, kendo, etc. All of them have important aspects that are good to learn and there's typically more overlap than most people tend to think. As far as which style, the honest to God truth is that they are all just different paths up the same mountain. I'm not just spouting a trite phrase here. All of the sword-styles worth learning have their own nuances, quirks, and idiosyncrasies but at the end of the day have FAR more similarities than differences. If you're specifically interested in the historical aspects of certain koryu (classical schools) then by all means seek them out. The dojo you linked to looks like they legitimately train in Hokiyama-ha Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu so I'm sure they'd be a very good place to check out. Ultimately, what's more important than the specific style is how well a specific teacher's teaching style works for you and how well you get along with the other students. It's pretty rare that any one martial art can be measured as being significantly better than another, what really determines how well you'll succeed at it is how much you like that particular style. It should work for you. It's definitely the sort of hobby where how much you get out of it is determined by how much you put into it. One last thing, remember that whatever you do end up pursuing you're there to learn it their way. Be receptive, keep an open mind, and before you know it you'll have enough experience and aptitude to see how the further up the path you get the more similar each style becomes... Sorry if this post was a bit rambling or preachy, I didn't mean it to be. It all sounded more simple in my head than it ended up when I typed it.
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 20, 2014 15:23:35 GMT
MBAdo? YES! I could eventually get a blackbelt in practicing swordsmanship like a boss! *audience groans*
So the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is supposed to be the traditional way. I'm getting advice from folks telling me it might not be what I really want after all. I thought about more it last night (I've been thinking about this for weeks) and I think I might best explain what I'm looking for in the following terms:
As a sword collector, I personally seek out blades that are functional. That's my preference. As a practitioner of swordsmanship I want to gain training and skills that are functional. I don't want to learn a skill that's barely more than kata any more than I want to collect non-functional blades. I want functional skill. I want to learn to be a swordsman who can apply his knowledge/skill/training in a combat scenario to take down an opponent--even if it means that the technique I use is a slight departure from traditional form/discipline. I have functional blades, and I want to learn to wield them functionally.
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Post by Krelian on Nov 20, 2014 17:17:10 GMT
The difference between if what you're learning is actually combative or just "moving meditation" kata usually has more to do with the teacher rather than the specific ryu-ha. None the less, it sounds to me like what you want is a path up the proverbial mountain that at least seems more direct. In that case I agree with John that Toyama-ryu/Nakamura-ryu (and possibly Shinkendo) are probably more what you're looking for...
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 20, 2014 18:11:18 GMT
Unfortunately no shinkendo dojos near me. Not even remotely. I think kendo looks alluring, but the shinai is so different than a sword that I fear it might even damage my proficiency with a katana instead of enhance it. Iado seems to be so passive; some dojos don't even offer tameshigiri as part of their Iado program. It's all about the "moving meditation". I enjoy kata. But I want functional takedown skill. Is there no discipline that teaches this? I am seeing in my search that I can study kendo or iado. One offers no real combat training. The other offers a fully armored smackdown with nothing resembling a sword.
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 20, 2014 18:12:03 GMT
No rambling observed! I appreciate both the technical knowledge and the practical advice.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Nov 20, 2014 18:54:57 GMT
The best advice I can give is to look for a Japanese jujutsu dojo and an Iaido dojo, and combine the ideas together. My Iaido sensei recently combined two classes he was teaching, Aiki-jujitsu and Iaido, saying he wanted students to have a better "grasp" of using unarmed and armed techniques. Sounds great for new students, but doesn't work for me since I'm already his most advanced sempai in Iaido, but never had a chance to take Aiki-jujitsu (long story) - the next best thing is to find an Iwama Aikido dojo, since they tend to practice pre-WWII Aikido compared to Aikikai or many other post war Aikido dojos - they have a pretty good repertoire of sword techniques, and complement that training with an Iaido class.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 20, 2014 21:15:19 GMT
Want sparring with less sport-distortion than kendo? Do HEMA. You will not have the focus on technique that you would get with iaido or kendo kata (but you can still do those, if money and time permit), but you will have sparring.
You can even use a katana-analog for sparring! Then you will discover the joy of lack of reach when facing longswords.
(The "problem" with kendo is not that a shinai is not like a katana, but the competition rules.)
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Post by Google on Nov 20, 2014 22:50:59 GMT
If you want old-school martial arts, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is a good place. Search also for Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, and Suio Ryu. I'm not sure what is available to you. Note that Toyama ryu and Shinkendo are modern, and were not available in samurai days. And please, everybody- It's IAIDO (EE-A-EE-DOH), not iado. Sorry for being bit of a jerk, it just stabs me in the heart.
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 20, 2014 22:53:04 GMT
Iaido. Got it Thanks for setting me straight.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 21, 2014 15:11:01 GMT
Um, fascinating discussion and wonderful advice. Me? There is one, read them, one Japanese sword type Dojo in my area. About 15 miles away (about 25 minutes in the usual local traffic). So, regardless of the ideal, if I want to do formal kenjutsu, iaido, etc study at a Dojo. And still keep my day job and take care of family stuff, for better or worse, the local Dojo is where I got to go. I do believe there is another good swords stuff Dojo in another city, about 1 1/2 hours drive away. Alas, too far. Don't have the half a day needed to take a 1 hour or so class. Kind of like the 1960's song (who sang it?): "If you can't be, with the one you love, love the one you're with..." (Darn....still searching for my autographed copy of Sensei Lovret's Kenjutsu Shodan....bought it for about $20 in the 1970's. Now over $200usa on Ebay. RinC
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