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Post by crazywolf on Oct 10, 2014 0:16:06 GMT
ever since I saw the 7 samurai I've wanted one. Plus though it would look good beside my naginata.so who has one and do you cut with it and what is like compared to a regular katana.any help or suggestions would be great.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Oct 10, 2014 0:19:52 GMT
i have a chinatana one that i bought years back. its been one of my favorite cutters, although it came with an 18 inch tsuka the tang was only 10 inches long and it snapped on me. I made a new 11" tsuka and its been fine ever since
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Post by frankthebunny on Oct 10, 2014 0:29:38 GMT
A few manufacturers make Odachi but I'm not sure how many are recommended for regular cutting. Depending on the length of the blade, it could be very different than wielding a katana.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Oct 10, 2014 1:02:39 GMT
^^ correct. Different feel and weight distribution because of the length of the tsuka. I know that both Hanwei and Cold Steel make Nodachi, but KOA is out of stock for the Hanwei at the moment.
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 10, 2014 1:11:18 GMT
Since you're referencing Seven Samurai (a movie I need to finish watching one day, started it then had to run off somewhere and never got back to it...) I assume the "nodachi" you're looking for is what would more commonly be called "odachi" rather than what is most often marketed as "nodachi" which is more like a nagamaki. Words aside, the only one I can think of that might be reputable would be Hanwei's, but with its overall length just shy of 70 inches and a nearly 50-inch blade, it's a biggun that not everybody would be able to handle so well... I've never had a chance to get my own hands on one, but as a larger fellow (6'2"-6'4", depending who you ask) I feel like it's a bit big even for me. What really puts me off, though, is the $800 price tag. :shock: Still, I'd really like to have one someday, just because. Something like this would probably be at the level of what Saito had: www.trueswords.com/giant-high-ca ... -3650.html However, I would not think that one "functional" for myself, likewise I don't find its er, aesthetics to my taste... This one by Musashi/Musha/whatever is probably the least expensive one I would trust to stay on my wall and behave without any issue, but I certainly can't vouch for its cutting abilities as even if I ever got my hands on one, that's probably where I'd leave it. :oops: There's not a lot out there, otherwise, so unlesss you're willing to settle for something much smaller than these (there are some 34" nagasa o-kats out there...) you're really limited.
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Post by Robert in California on Oct 10, 2014 1:29:29 GMT
I got to use a very high quality nodachi (think it was a Shinshinto) that had about a 34 inch blade, thick and wide with total eye candy hada and hamon (courtesy my Sensei). Had to cut from the waist/hara...too big and heavy to just use arms and shoulders. Was fun, but too heavy to be practical....too slow due to the weight. Samurai routinely had their heirloom long tachi blades shortened for good reason. (like ran out of horses and had to haul those big swords themselves...pant! puff! pant!) Horsemen liked those big, long swords a lot better than the infantry. The original A.K.'s "Seven Samurai" is a real classic. But if you mean that monster sword T.Mifune carried in the movie...not a practical blade. Clumsy for a foot soldier. RinC
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 10, 2014 1:57:16 GMT
Completely forgot my obligatory posting of this video:
I have to share it every time these things come up, because it makes me giggle.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 10, 2014 2:22:09 GMT
That's the key feature of big two-handers. You can't just wave them about using your arms - good biomechanics are needed. (I hit this point at about 1.8kg; it isn't sudden, but 1.5kg can be moved usefully by arms alone, but 2kg cannot. The lighter swords do benefit from good biomechanics too, but it's less essential.)
Slower, yes. But more reach to make up for it. Use that reach properly, and they're practical. Still heavy and awkward things to carry around, though. (I don't know if 34" of blade versus 26-27" would be enough to make me really happy with the weight versus reach. Depends on the weight of the long sword. For a big European two-hander, 48" of blade at 3kg works against 36" of blade at 1.5kg.)
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Oct 10, 2014 10:14:57 GMT
I like making comparison shots. The Hanwei Odachi is 171,5 cm in overall length and blade is 125,6 cm. It weighs 2575 grams. The Kensei Odachi is 142 cm in overall length and blade is 96,4 cm. It weighs 2465 grams. The Last Legend tachi is 125 cm in overall length and blade is 91,4cm. It weighs 1450 grams. katana is 100,5 cm in overall length and blade is 71,4 cm. It weighs 1050 grams. That sums up the sizes, I think it's easier to explain with numbers and picture to ease the understanding of the numbers. I haven't cut with the two "big boys". I feel that Hanwei Odachi is too long & heavy for me for comfortable cutting. And I feel that Kensei Odachi is too heavy for comfortable cutting. As you can see Kensei is very wide and it weighs almost as much as Hanwei does even though it's c. 30 cm shorter. With these very large swords recovery is one crucial thing. These are not the blades you make lightning fast cuts with, these are the blades you hit hard with. Like Timo and Robert said eariler you need your whole body to control these effectively. Once you have your body controlling the sword these will deliver devastating blows by sheer momentum, same thing with huge swords of every culture. I used to cut a bit with the LL before I decided it would become a tachi. It was semi-custom order and it weighed about 1500 grams when it was in katana koshirae. Even that much weight and size creates a ridiculous momentum. Pretty much every Last Legend sword I've owned has been a great cutter but this has been the best & easiest. I used this on one tameshigiri seminar and everything needed for tatami omote was that I started the swing at good angle. The size and sharpness of the sword handled the rest. With this sword cutting is really effortless. I can't really say it is fun because I feel that cutting becomes too easy... Now if sword of this size already cuts so effortlessly, adding 1000 grams more mass will make that cutting power devastating. I think some organizations have sword size and weight limits for their cutting competitions to make it a fair game for everyone. I think it's a good thing since it should be about your own skill and not about the cutting ability and mass of the sword. As for the who makes one, there really aren't many for sale. Hanwei Odachi: kultofathena.com/product.asp?ite ... wei+Odachi Imperial Forge Odachi: www.customkatana.co.uk/IFNodachi.htmCold Steel O-katana: kultofathena.com/product.asp?ite ... s+O+Katana I think these are about the only three currently up for sale that I would feel comfortable using. I have to add couple eBay vendors make usable swords with c. 90 cm blades if that is long enough for you (I don't have that much experience with eBay vendors, I used to own crappy huge odachi years ago from one of them). If you want something really big and don't like Hanwei or Imperial, then custom is the way to go.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Oct 10, 2014 11:00:20 GMT
Mines deff alot nicer than that one is mines at least as nice as a musashi brand
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 10, 2014 12:25:18 GMT
I had the opportunity to play with a Hanwei Odachi, and it was a funny sword. It's the length and weight of a Euro two-hander, but with a quite curved blade. So the handling was quite different, and I didn't understand it. The curve means that rotating the sword about it's own axis has a much higher moment of inertia, and the alignment between grip and cutting edge is different. I basically grokked Euro two-hander, but this was not the same. I think if I had one of my own and could play with one more, I'd figure some stuff out. Partly, it was different when changing direction after a cut. But it felt like it was more optimised for draw cuts using a lot of the blade, unlike Euro two-handers built more for cuts with the tip end of the blade and thrusts. Maybe this means I need to learn to thrust with this thing better.
That Kensei sword is rather heavy. Lots of functional okatana of similar (but a little shorter) blade length that are only about Euro longsword weight (about 1.5kg or so). The Kensei seems to add almost a kilogram, and what do you gain from that (not counting cutting mats)?
While some people will disagree, I think that generally mass is bad in weapons. Light=fast and fast=hitting, and it's an unusual target that really benefits from more weight. So the extra mass of huge swords is an undesirable side effect, rather than a Good Thing. Still, that extra mass can be worth the extra reach (or for polearms, the extra hooking things, the extra spikes, the extra parrying bars etc.).
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Post by Robert in California on Oct 10, 2014 14:51:39 GMT
What one should look for in a sword, is a sword that does not tire one out quickly. For a young, large, strong person, a heavy sword can be used for as long and as fast as a lighter sword will be by an older or weaker person.
The basic problem with extremely long swords and polearms is when the opponent with something shorter and faster, gets inside the combat radius of the person with the long sword/polearm.
For instance, an SCA sword (one handed) and shield fighter vs. a great sword/polearm. The S&S guy often wins by taking the great sword/polearm hit on his/her shield in a rush attack and thus getting inside the great sword/polearm defense.
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Post by frankthebunny on Oct 10, 2014 16:15:31 GMT
If I were facing mounted opponents on the battlefield, I wouldn't mind having an Odachi or a pole arm but I'd like to also have a shorter weapon at my side for facing opponents one on one. Were Odachi commonly carried along with katana or wakizashi?
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Post by crazywolf on Oct 10, 2014 16:35:28 GMT
in my research on Odachi/nodachi it seems that it was common for them to carry a katana as well.from what I read after the cavalry charge and right before the troop joined in single combat the Odachi carriers would go to the front and hurl their odachi at the on coming troops in a spinning motion at their legs. Then draw katana and charge. A 3 ft or better piece of sharp steel flying at my legs would sure cause me to wish I was some where else.it doesn't tell how they threw them but I wonder it was something like a hammer throw where the thrower would spin around one or more times and then throw. I would also like to say thanks for all the other info on Odachi/nodachi that other members have given me been very helpful.
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Post by Novice_Surgery on Oct 10, 2014 17:04:22 GMT
You could also look at huawei or sinosword and ask them what theyd charge you to make a blade like that for you. Both companies produce nice blades for fair prices, and of course you'd be getting something special.
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Post by etiennehamel on Oct 10, 2014 19:32:42 GMT
i would also think that it would have been an interesting way to stop a cavalry charge like the zhan ma dao in chinese warfare but i don't have any proof on that, since japanese seemed to have pretty much been inspired by chinese warfare i would think it could be plausible hence the beefy appearance of the odachi. a spear would have been good also but it's not as got as a long blade to cut the front legs of a horse
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Post by crazywolf on Oct 10, 2014 21:47:51 GMT
sorry what I meant was against cavalry one to two men would weld the odachi against the horsemen it is said that they would some time cut horse and rider in half with one cut.once the cavalry pulled back and the main forces went to join this is when the men with the odachi would throw them since they were to big and slow to use once the troops joined in battled.which is what I think they did with spears and naginatas as these to would be hard to use in a mass of troops.
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Post by etiennehamel on Oct 10, 2014 22:24:20 GMT
that makes more sense words sometimes can be wrongly interpreted.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 10, 2014 22:38:47 GMT
SCA rules favour sword-and-board, relatively. Knee and lower are off-target, which takes away a most excellent greatsword target. That, and no grappling, help that rush-in attack work. Still, even in SCA, greatsword and polearms work, and can work well. In Real Life, they'd be even better.
It isn't sword and shield that will stomp greatsword (and halberd, partisan, etc) on the battlefield, but spears.
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Mikeeman
Member
Small Business Operator
Posts: 2,904
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Post by Mikeeman on Oct 10, 2014 22:46:29 GMT
Ok. Here we go. Given our lack of availability to this type of blade and, thusly, our lack of experience on with this type of blade, here's what I propose. I will purchase the one from Trueswords. It will not be sent to me. I'll get some experienced volunteers and it will be shipped from one to the other for review. No cost to the reviewers other than shipping it to the next reviewer until it ultimately ends up with me or whoever decides to reimburse me for the blade before it gets to me. Sound like a fair deal? Who's in?
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