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Post by Kirin on Sept 9, 2014 20:23:38 GMT
Greetings SBG Forum,
After gaining a great deal of advice from reading other posts on katana recommendations, I am seeking recommendations on a quality katana for dojo training purposes. However, unlike many recommendations for a great cutter, my focus is on handling and aesthetics. I plan to use the katana for tameshigiri only occasionally on tatami at most.
I currently study Shinkendo and have also trained in Kendo. I had already asked my sensei for advice but since the production katana world is constantly changing, I would also like to seek advice from educated and experienced sword buyers in this forum. I am especially interested in what swords other JSA practitioners use for dojo kata purposes.
My current budget is from 500 - 900. I know this price range is not anywhere close for a true nihontou but recommendations for katana that handles well and resembles a traditional katana is the goal. In addition, I require any katana recommendation to have two mekugi pins for safety purposes. Ideally, I would like a nagasa length of 29 to 31 inches. My current Budo Aoi Iaito is 29 inches and I can use a couple more inches to it.
Here is my current research so far:
Ronin Elite- Decent reputation on this forum. Good sword aesthetics and decent cutting ability. Good variety for one of a kind swords. However, there has been a recent review that has revealed some flaws in the blade.
Dynasty Forge- Known for very good blades. Bushi line with silver wave fittings looks aesthetically pleasing. However, it seems that the sword only has one mekugi pin.
Hanwei/Bugei- The standard for many dojos and practitioners. Very good reputation for cutting. However, they have a heavier blade and are not known for their traditional blade design. I have looked at the Bamboo Mat cutter and handling is a concern. In addition, I am not as partial to their fitting as other companies I have examined.
- Budo Series - Out of stock. I haven't found an ETA on new blades. They have a good reputation for their blades. Their web design seems a bit outdated and more pictures of their blades would be appreciated.
Kaneie- Very good looking fittings. The Samurai Workshop Gokui Collection looked impressive. However, they are borderline high at my price range and most importantly, I do not see a United States dealer for the company.
Martialartsswords- Beautiful swords. However at their traditional katana price range, I can start getting close to ordering a Shinken from Japan.
Citadel- European Dealer. Out of price range.
Custom Swordsmiths- Time and Price Range concerns.
End of Research
Any information would be appreciated. I was not sure if posting on beginner forums or Japanese Sword Forums was more appropriate since it was my first but feel free to move it.
Sincerely,
-K
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Post by frankthebunny on Sept 9, 2014 20:58:06 GMT
The Hanwei Shinto katana is fairly traditional looking and not a heavy sword at all. It also has one of the nicest tsuka shapes of any Hanwei katana imho.
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Post by Kirin on Sept 9, 2014 21:45:17 GMT
Thanks for the prompt reply.
I had looked at the Shinto katana but the tsuba seemed a bit non-traditional/modern interpretation to me. Although I know how to disassemble a katana, it seems like it may take a bit of work to replace the fittings.
Right now the top of my list appears to be the Ronin Elite and Hanwei Tori XL Light. Anyone have any experience comparing the two?
I am open to other recommendations that may slightly differ from my budget range as well. The more input, the better.
-K
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 9, 2014 22:59:27 GMT
Have a look at Hanbon's higher items, the store's owner is easy to get along with and the swords have a good reputation, in addition you can mix and match components, additionally you can ask them to select a longer blade for you while the standard is about 28" when I asked for a longer blade for my nephew they were able to find a 29.5" inch blade easily from stock. www.ebay.com/itm/TOP-QUALITY-Japanese ... 19f315e799
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Post by Lobster Hunter on Sept 9, 2014 23:01:27 GMT
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 9, 2014 23:26:12 GMT
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Post by Kirin on Sept 10, 2014 3:36:36 GMT
Thanks for all of the recommendations so far.
I had looked through every katana mentioned and am still considering all of the choices. It is quite a challenge to find a katana that leaps out at you as "the one" when you cannot hold it in your hands.
Although I know that E-Bay may have hidden gems, I am still a bit too wary of using it for something as delicate as a katana. I feel safer with established sites.
I am also still looking for anyone who has personally handled both a Ronin Elite and Tori XL Light for a comparison. I know it will be a subjective comparison but I like having different opinions. My main concern with the Tori is the leather ito while the Ronin Elite's dotanuki style makes me wonder about the handling.
Keep the recommendations/personal experiences coming along. All of this is greatly appreciated.
-K
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 10, 2014 3:55:16 GMT
Forum member Isshogai has handled both I believe. He has reviews on both swords in the Sword Review section as well as on his YouTube channel. You could try and send him a PM, or contact him via his YouTube channel. I get the feeling that he prefers the Tori. www.sword-forum.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2680www.youtube.com/channel/UC8UEjZXax9cOYvh1VIlZtRwThe Ronin has a slightly blade-heavy feel, which lends it more towards cutting rather than drills, forms and kata. The leather on the Tori is fairly high quality and is, if I recall correctly, done with hishigami.
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Post by Isshogai on Sept 10, 2014 11:10:51 GMT
Hi Kirin, Thanks for contacting me and alerting me to the thread and also to adrian for pointing you in my direction. I have indeed used both the Ronin Elite and the Tori elite. Detailed reviews of both are found below - Tori Elite XL Light - www.way-of-the-samurai.com/Tori- ... eview.html Ronin Dojo Elite - www.way-of-the-samurai.com/Ronin ... eview.html Ronin Dojo Hammer Forged - www.way-of-the-samurai.com/Ronin ... eview.html I've included the link to the Hammer forged sword as well, as this is closer in comparison to the Tori. Overall I favour the Tori, however the hammer forged Ronin is an excellent blade at a far lower price (though if you can get a cheap second hand Tori I'd always go with that). However, neither of these blades are suitable for the study of Shinkendo. I've actually written a 140 + page book on the subject of selecting the right samurai sword and one of the things I briefly discuss is that Shinkendo actually has VERY specific and detailed sword requirements as per the guidelines set out by Toshiro Obabta Sensei. For instance the problems with the Tori for Shinkendo are: The shape of the blade is wrong No Niku Low Shinogi Same is wrong The tsuka is too long The motohaba, mihaba and sakihaba are out by about 0.3-.0.6mm The Menuki are not correctly placed.[/list:u]
But that's not exclusive to the Tori. Equally the Ronin series is also not suitable...
The shape of the blade is wrong The kissaki is the wrong shape Low Niku Low Shinogi The tsuka is too long The motohaba, mihaba and sakihaba are out. The Menuki are not correctly placed. Same is wrong The kashira is the wrong shape[/list:u]
The biggest issue overall with production swords is the mounting of the kashira and the placement of the menuki. You need a higo style kashira and gyaku or handachi zukuri koshirea (mounts). This is the reverse of nearly every blade out there.
One option would be to purchase a blade with the right dimensions, proper kissaki etc and then have it custom wrapped. There's obviously an additional cost to that. The other option is to actually buy a blade specifically designed for Shinkendo.
That's probably easier.
As you can see in the above brief breakdown the Tori and Paul Chen blades come closet. (Just to comment on the recommendation of the Tea Culture katana - I own that, it's one of my favourites, it is completely and utterly inappropriate for Shinkendo). It may come as no surprise then to note that Paul Chen actually designed and produced a sword with specifications made by Toshiro Obata sensei. It's called the Shinkendo Kotetsu and retails for about $1800 though you can find ones for about $800 2nd hand if you're lucky.
Hope that helps.
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Post by Kirin on Sept 10, 2014 15:19:23 GMT
Thank you for the very informative reply. I was pleasantly surprised to find someone that knows of the Shinkendo specification for katana.
From your analysis of the specifications, it makes it significantly easier to compare the blades. It seems that the Tori is the closest to Kotetsu style configuration at my budget unless you know of any others.
Do you feel that the specifications help protect practitioners from earlier production katana of dubious quality, emphasis on a traditional design, or is it more of a founder preference? In particular, how do you feel about the increasing quality of modern production blades through advances compared to traditional sword requirements of JSA styles (if you know of others with blade requirements).
If anyone else has feedback on modern production blades and know of other JSA sword specifications or recommendations, I would be interested in learning about it.
Sincerely,
-K
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Post by Isshogai on Sept 10, 2014 23:44:44 GMT
Hi Kirin, You're welcome. While the Tori is more suitable than the Ronin range - I still would not recommend it. The handachi zukuri mount is of crucial importance for the technique of Shinkendo tameshigiri. You're best bet production wise if you can't get your hands on the Paul Chen Kotetsu would be a blade done in Yagyu Shinkage ryu koshirae or Tamiya Ryu koshirae such as the gyaku-te edition of the Hataya Kotetsu Katana. New these would likely be out of your budget at about $2,500- $3,000 however they do pop from time to time second hand. Here's a quick example I saw recently - www.legacyswords.com/fs_gen_sword5.htmThe specifications of the Shinkendo federation are heavily influenced by the suggestions of Nakamura Taizaburo of the Nakamura-ryū and Toyama-ryū. The specifications he recommended was for a time pre the production sword boom. He made suggestions based on the unfortunate real world experience he had of using a sword in combat during WW2. As for how I feel about the developing of production sword quality - it's wonderful, if only they'd make the right damn thing! :-D Modern blades such as Howard Clarks L6 Bainite Katana are not traditional, but you can't argue with the craft and stunning results. New forges such as Ronin, offer awesome products at affordable prices and in time I have no doubt that with their commitment to input from experienced swordsmen will produce something spectacular. Paul Chen and Hanwei have long been producing excellent blades. (2 of my top 3 shinken). The problem is NONE of these swords meet the demands of JSA - and that's fine, they aren't actually meant to. The majority of people purchasing and interested in katana aren't studying a genuine JSA style. Few instructors actually know that much about the blades and koshirea of their schools anyway. Good business means meeting the demands of the majority not the specialist. As for other blade specifications and JSA, as I mentioned I actually wrote a whole book (2 volumes actually) on the blade specification's for MJER Iai. But while I was at it I looked at the differences between the MJER and Katori Shinto Ryu, Toyama Ryu, Tamiya Ryu, Muso Shinden Ryu, Musashi Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu and more. The book is actually out...It's called The Sensei's Sword, but I'm not doing the big press push on it yet. You can check out some of the content here - Shinogi and Niku; The Ridgeline and Meat of the Blade Explained, "An EXCLUSIVE preview chapter from, 'The Sensei's Sword' - www.way-of-the-samurai.com/Shinogi-and-Niku.htmlHow to Tie a Sageo & It's Importance for Iaido - www.way-of-the-samurai.com/how-to-tie-a-sageo.htmlHope that helps.
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Post by Lobster Hunter on Sept 11, 2014 3:18:58 GMT
Very informative book!
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Post by johnwalter on Sept 11, 2014 10:43:41 GMT
I see Paul got to you first.Good deal. I have to add,ask your sensei since you study Shinkendo and they have certain blade requirements.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 11, 2014 12:56:44 GMT
I do not know about Shinkendo specs so Paul and John can probably explain those to you. As well as explain more about what sword you want for JSA/dojo use. My views are plainly based on historical view. However if I understand correctly Shinkendo practicioners might be looking after Kanbun Shinto sugata, I just decucted that from the looks and the fact that the Shinkendo sword was/is called Paul Chen Kotetsu. My candidate for production swords would be Paul Chen PPK, if you don't want to spend a lot of money. Of course getting what your sensei recommends would be the best option. This is DrJoes pic of Paul Chen Kotetsu (the Shinkendo sword) The reason for comparison is so you can see how straight it is. And this is comparison pic showing the PPK (I shortened the tsuka for 5-6 cms and did other customizations too). In my opinion Hataya Kotetsu sword would be something you would not want. Not sure why they are named Kotetsu (probably because they cut well)... Basic PPK is a good blade and as it seems to be needed you could get a custom tsuka made for it. After all that it'll still be much cheaper than many of the other options. While not exactly the same sugata you might want to check out Nine Circles Katana, they are made by Kaneie but are bit cheaper. I had one but didn't like the balance of it, different things for different folk. They could probably change the menuki position when ordering.
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Post by uchiha998 on Sept 11, 2014 14:54:12 GMT
Well I have to say I don't know anything about what schools have what requirements. However, I do know the production market fairly well and I know what traditional nihonto look like. When you said you wanted something "traditional" I assume you mean you want something as close to nihonto as you can get. But what features specifically would you be looking some production katana are more traditional than the next one, but they could be more traditonal(using the term a bit loosely) in different ways. For instance traditional nihonto are folded and many traditional looking production katana are not. Very few are made of tamahagane which is another aspect of of nihonto. Basically none of those made from Japanese Iron sand. But this isn't a bad thing. I'd guess what you are mostly looking for is a tradtional sugata and blade geometry. Am I correct?
So let me get down to the katana then. One that you have been discussing is the Tori XL. XL style blades are anything but tradtional in blade geometry. It is 37mm at the motohaba(width near habaki). It also has a this kasane starting at 6mm and tapering to 3.8mm. And they certainly are without niku. All these make this sword far from traditional. And all of the XL blades have dimensions and geometries similar to this. These are designed to be competition style mat cutters and trick cutting. The Tori Elite is closer but still wider and thinner than I think your looking for.
The Ronin Elite is much more traditional as far as it's dimensions go. But from what others have posted your particular school would benefit from a high shinogi and ample niku. From all the pics I've seen the Ronin Elite seems to have a slight niku and fairly low shinogi. But it does have much more tradtional aesthetics IMO.
The Budo is one of the best swords on the market if not the best under $1000. You get quite a lot for the money you pay. It is a very tradtional looking blade compared to others on the production market and has traditional dimensions. The last run was available with higo style koshirae, which I believe someone mentioned was preferred for your ryu. It does have niku, however it isn't a heavy niku. does offer a katana we call the "1095 Beater" or "1095 Budget Cutter" which does have an ample niku. It won't be as nice as the Budo but it is an excellent sword for that price($295). The problem with those 2 swords is they are not in stock and I have no idea when they will be back in stock.
Also check out the ebay vendor Huawei and see if anything there hits your eye. Also I'm curious you said you asked your sensei but would like some other opinions as well. What did he recommend for you?
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Post by Kirin on Sept 12, 2014 3:29:49 GMT
Thank you for the numerous responses. I enjoyed looking at the picture comparisons between the Shinkendo blade and others. I also especially appreciated Isshogai's excerpts from his book and analysis of the JSA and modern production blades. I will consider getting his book in the future.
The advice my sensei gave me was of course to get the Shinkendo katana since the quality has been verified by the Honbu Dojo. I wasn't aware of any difficulties in performing cutting techniques if I had a different sword model. I had been mostly training my swordsmanship ability and had just recently started wanting to learn more about the technical and historical aspects of katana.
I am still trying to understand why a certain design would be preferred over the other other than for safety and tradition. To me, I believe that if I train enough, I should be able to use almost any katana. Different katana may have different nuances in handling but it is not like I am going from a katana to a rapier.
During training, occasionally, there will be a chance to use different weapons on tameshigiri targets that are not federation katana. I suspect it varies from each individual dojo. From my discussions so far, my sensei appears open to me using other katana as long as they have two mekugi/safe construction.
It is more of a personal desire so far to get a more traditional looking blade but I may have also been focusing heavily on the fittings as well. My main concern was the feel and image of the katana and not the cutting ability.
The Budo was high on my interest list but the lack of production is the main drawback as noted in my initial post.
My main issue with the practical series is that they are excellent at mat cutting but I question the fittings and feel of the rest of the sword. I want to use a sword for kata and only occasionally for tameshigiri.
Sincerely,
-K
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Post by Isshogai on Sept 15, 2014 10:32:24 GMT
Yes and No. Certain designs reflect certain functions - however the most important consideration for ALL styles was the safe functional use of the blade. While it may be true that a sword is sword and if you are trained well enough you should be able to cut with anything...yes that's true, but it won't be an ideal cut and could in fact be quite risky.
Just to take a quick example - how does the kashira reflect the grip and tenouchi of your sword style? The Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu grip the sword in a different way to the Katori Shinto Ryu, who do it differently to Toyama Ryu, Tamiya Ryu, Yagyu Shinage ryu and obviously Shinkendo etc. Each style has a unique way of just holding the sword - and the fittings they select are designed to highlight and augment that. For instance in Shinkendo they recommend a rounded Higo style kashira. That would NOT be suitable for MJER, as we would find with your grip of the katana that such a rounded kashira causes the grip to slip and in turn weakens your cut and technique.
Can I use a Higo mounted blade, absolutely. Is it the safest blade for me to use - hell no.
And my reason for being pedantic about this sort of stuff is simple. If I pick up a Higo koshirae blade I adjust my grip accordingly to make sure it's proper and safe for that sword - but that grip is NOT a MJER grip and then in my mind I am no longer doing MJER exactly which is the whole point of being in a ryu for me.
If you were to use a Tenshō-koshirae mount you could not hold the sword correctly as per the specifications of the Shinkendo style. So are you doing Shinkendo or a half-assed version with the wrong grip. And grip is of course fundamental to any style.
As for tradition, Shinkendo is a modern art, it's traditions are still being established so most of this is academic - however, for me in studying MJER and being part of an unbroken tradition extending back over 400 years making, keeping in line with tradition is the whole point. If I break from that tradition I am not doing MJER, I am doing some form of silly sword dancing. Being authentic to the ryu is very important for me.
But then - there is an element of practicality in al this - and the samurai were nothing if not practical. If you sword broke, then you'd grab whatever you could in battle and you'd work with it. This is why your sensei says it doesn't really matter as long as it's double pegged and safe. (Interestingly, most authentic nihonoto are single pegged, the reason double pegged production swords developed was a result of one size fits all tsuka that are shimmed - not individually carved handles).
And speaking of broken swords - I like the PPK, I've used it, a good friend has one....but they have problems in the heat treating and have a tendency to snap clean in half. I wouldn't recommend one.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 15, 2014 21:24:22 GMT
I must say it's joy to read that you have such an approach when it comes to swords & martial arts Paul. That's bit similar mindset to mine even though I don't practice martial arts so I value bit different things. Not many practicioners even consider so "advanced" stuff so to speak. That's very bad news about PPK... I've had good luck with the couple that I owned but it's understandable that there are bad ones out there too, that's just downside of the low price tag.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Sept 16, 2014 2:02:54 GMT
Great stuff Isshogai... your book looks like a nice addition to my (or any) library. Keep us informed about when you're going to have a general release.
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Post by uchiha998 on Sept 16, 2014 12:20:51 GMT
Wow. You seen one snap in half? As in the blade itself? That must be what you meant as you were speaking of the heat treatment. Wow, I've never seen that except with a Stainless steel blade. Usually it is the tsuka that is the weak point on a production sword and is the part that breaks first. And yes heat treatment is certainly one of the downsides of the lower price tag. Though, of course, it isn't so much that $300 swords have a bad heat treatment exactly. It is more that much less attention and QC is given to the heat treatments. Therefore, you will randomly find $300 swords with excellent heat treatments and those that happen to be complete lemons. I've seen an RDP roll its edge on soaked newspaper rolls and just a little roll of the edge a huge pretty much fatal blow to the sword(Granted newspaper rolls are a tougher target than people usually think). Now when you have an $1800 sword the smiths who make them spend much more time and effort into making sure the heat treatment goes well and without any problems. Even with swords over $500 the heat treatments are much more consistent. I've never heard anyone say anything negative about the Budo's heat treatment or the Bamboo Mat for instance.
Also Jussi, please please tell me what sword that is at the bottom of your comparison pic. It looks wicked with it's sori and shorter tsuka. Though I wonder how it handles since the short tsuka often causes the blade to be more tip heavy than I like. Still the sword looks pretty sweet. What sad is, its probably something I should know just by looking. Something I've seen 1000 times. But maybe not.
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