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Post by american samurai on Dec 26, 2013 1:12:35 GMT
Another good wood block print. Over a certain size it would take two people to carry and would not have been usable for actual fighting.  |
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Post by Bob B on Dec 27, 2013 0:42:10 GMT
Welp, the thing that buffudles (if that's a word...) me is at least two sources I mentioned talked about using them from horseback. I'm a small statured person and I could not imagine trying to wield even the smaller of the bunch (31-40") from the back of a horse all the while in armor (50-90lbs). At least a naginata or yari is split into thirds and weight distribution is even and conceivable, but not a No-dachi. I'm guessing, here but these guys must have specialized.... lol. They were surely the abrams of their day.
Bob
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Post by Kurimuzon on Dec 27, 2013 15:11:16 GMT
Great information! I'm very curious about the mention of some odachi having cord wrapped up to half way up the blade. I wonder if this was for techniques that are similar to halfswording in WMA?
Can't imagine wielding one of these monsters on a horseback, I'd love to see it done though.
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Post by american samurai on Dec 28, 2013 4:29:53 GMT
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Post by Bob B on Dec 28, 2013 5:00:15 GMT
Ummm yeah, on the illustration below......that's multitasking. I'll bet they all went to the dojo more than twice a week....lol!!!!
Bob
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Post by american samurai on Dec 28, 2013 6:48:49 GMT
How about this, could anyone actually wield this in battle?  |
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Post by Bob B on Dec 28, 2013 16:26:59 GMT
lol....looks like the two guys in armor carrying it in the parade felt brave that day.
Bob
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Post by Bob B on Dec 28, 2013 17:35:59 GMT
On the serious side, if I was a betting man I'd say they probably didn't use something that large in the field, nope. Now, on that illustration I would have a tendency to believe the warrior on the mount with the No-dachi is exaggerated in size (the blade) to serve some point to readers. I'd have to think the nagasa was a bit smaller than what's pictured. The middle sized blade that I used in reference...40" the weight distribution from horseback would have to be "weird". I guess where was the cut off point on what was practical and what was dedicated to the shrine? That's the other question I have now. This is kinda interesting now. Probably a hard question to answer with a lot of variables and all that. Anyway, you have some cool information.
Thanks,
Bob
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Dec 31, 2013 15:42:03 GMT
Yamanaka states in his Newsletters in regards Nambokucho and Odachi
There are lots of legends around swords in Japan, as well as rest of the world.
The painting that American Samurai posted is a part of Anegawa battle screen, and Makara Naotaka wields his great sword Tarou in that.
Some sources state that Makara Naotaka has been a man of massive stature. Where an average man of this period was about 160cm he has been possibly said to be 195cm in height (however I do not know how valid this estimate of his height is). However he was a Commander, so his size may have been exaggerated. And I am not sure how much actual battling commanders did during that time.
One old guide line for Odachi selection is in a book published during Tenbun - Eiroku. The total length was usually the measurement of the wearer under the ear. Odachi are being described as being used particulary by the rear guard Zuigo. Usual term nowdays is Shingari. Was this rear guard an elite troop that guarded commanders?
One picture from Gioku Seki Zashi is listed as attitudes of ashigaru and wakato at the battle of Ichinotani. In this picture Wakato (servant) is described riding horseback on his masters secondary horse carrying seoi-dachi on his back.
Also 元弘 Genko 1331 and 建武 Kemmu 1334 are listed being as a kind of starting point after which odachi became more popular.
There are plenty of descriptions of old famous warriors and their sword lengths listed.
Just for giggles the Hanwei Odachi is bit below my ear. So a samurai of c. 185 cm who used odachi could by that Muromachi period guideline have used a sword c. 170 cm in total length.
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Post by Bob B on Dec 31, 2013 23:23:14 GMT
Hey Jussi,
This came from an article in a newsletter Jussi? Or was there a book I should be looking to pick up? This all became suddenly interesting. I don't practice with No (o) dachi, but kinda curious none the less. These weapons are awesome. I'm a little more interested in more about them and their hisory all of a sudden.
Hey, Happy late birthday by the way Jussi, I was gonna write in the post in the general forum but I'll just do it here and now before I forget.
Bob
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Post by american samurai on Jan 1, 2014 6:20:03 GMT
Here is an extreme example, but it is one of a very few I have seen with a weight, it will give you some idea of how heavy these swords actually were. At 29lbs I can not see anyone swinging this monster around very much but who knows, with practice and determination anything is possible, and if you did happen to see someone swinging this around a battlefield it would have made one hell of an impression, even if it was just being wielded for the shock effect. Odachi / nodachi forged by Osafune Norimitsu in 1447, 12.5 ft long, with a nakago of 5 ft, it weighs 29 lbs, being polished by Fujishiro Okisato in 1992.   |
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jan 1, 2014 6:30:15 GMT
As far as I can recall, and I may be wrong, but these enormous Odachi were not meant to be wielded. They were meant as offerings to temples and temple gods.
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Post by Bob B on Jan 1, 2014 7:58:47 GMT
Well, that's what I was talking about; what's the cut-off on practical and sacrificial. Jussi answered that I think. There's some nice stats there. But, in my own tiny mind I have to think at some time, fanatics had to try using the monstrous size on the field at least once thinking the gods or whatever would protect/help them. I think in many cultures that line of thinking may have taken/ and still does take place...lol.
Bob
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 2, 2014 2:24:06 GMT
I imagine some of them stood in as standards, too, for troops to rally around in place of flags. Would definitely make an impression on the other guys. Imagine one huge guy strutting out onto the field with a massive sword and everybody just runs toward him and gets behind that guy. :shock:
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jan 3, 2014 22:13:40 GMT
The quoted part in my post is from Yamanaka Newsletters, they were written by Albert Yamanaka for JSSUS as a monthly series between 1968 and 1972. There are two versions of these compiled into books, 3 book and 4 book (which I have) versions. That quote was taken from the article, History of the Japanese Sword which has c. 100 pages. The odachi selection references as well as odachi swords of famous samurai come from The Sword and Same, which sword part is translated Honcho Gunkiko book 8, which was written c. 1720. It's very intresting book and has also lots of intresting information about swords. I'm also on the boat which believes that the biggest ones weren't meant to be used for fighting. However in that above book there is a mention about one huge sword being used and broken. *I believe this term references to when 12 very famous swordsmiths + 24 other swordsmiths were summoned by Emperor Go Toba en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Toba and I believe the records say the emperor at least tempered some swords or maybe did whole swords under the guidance of masters Unfortunately I cannot find any more information about Takeda Mototsuna. Kumano is located in Kii province. But with little more digging I found out that Kumano is "spritual hot spot", and for 1000 years there has been pilgrimage to Kumano. www.tb-kumano.jp/en/kumano-kodo/ I read that samurai along with common folk made pilgrimages to Kumano and during war times the victors of battles in province made faithfully donations to Kumano shrines as they were considered very powerful and holy. So could it be that there would be strong spritual connection with the huge sword Takeda Mototsuna wielded? Just throwing that out as possible thought, nothing certain about it. I have some information about odachi in Japanese books, unfortunately my own translation process is very very slow and filled with misunderstandings  . |
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Post by Bob B on Jan 4, 2014 0:38:16 GMT
Hey Jussi,
I'm gonna start looking at Guido Schiller that American Samurai quoted, I have not read him yet, and I've seen the name here and there through the years in places. I still have until the 15th til I go back to practicing patching people up. I will google some stuff too. My wife should be thrilled I'm buying sword more books instead of more blades or related metal thingees...lol.
Bob
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Post by Bob B on Jan 4, 2014 4:02:47 GMT
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Post by Elrikk on Mar 1, 2015 21:05:42 GMT
Yeah, but those dudes are only 3 feet tall!
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Post by karishamarsh on Mar 1, 2015 22:24:26 GMT
Wow, I wonder if these belonged to what are know as 'nephilim'? Makes you wonder as these are so big no human could possibly wield one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 22:30:44 GMT
As far as I can recall, and I may be wrong, but these enormous Odachi were not meant to be wielded. They were meant as offerings to temples and temple gods. Like Mr. Jordan said, the point wasn't to wield them. |
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