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Post by rammstein on Nov 6, 2007 3:10:43 GMT
I read it at myarmoury and I don't have a source, but apparently literacy rates INCREASED during the dark ages compared to the time before. Wasn't as "dark" as the victorians want us to believe.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2007 4:46:33 GMT
I have taken a number of lectures on Medieval history. A number of Professors who specialize on the subject have said that literacy rates decreased between 400 and 1000. They went as far as to say that even clergy were often illiterate. They would often mumble through the Latin bible because they could not read it. Peasants did not know the difference but other clerics did. This was very common because the Nobility often appointed friends and family to church positions. This was not challenged by the church until after 1000 AD.
Whoever said what they said in myarmory has no clue. That he has no reference to back it up does not surprise me. He probably read about one isolated instance. One such instance would be Ireland. That is only because Ireland went for zero people who can read to a few dozen monks. Irish monks were the most literate monks in all of Europe including Rome.
In the dark ages to say that you are clergy was same as saying you literate. The terms were interchangeable. We have texts that mention Clergy who are lay. Within the context of the time that was a paradox since clergy had to be literate. This gives an idea of the extent of the illiteracy.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Nov 8, 2007 13:53:16 GMT
Thanks for the advice. I did some poking around on a few uk sites, and it seems that plate does actually work out around the same price (if you buy carefully). Although, I recently came across a site selling rather fabulous leather armour that is currently designing personalised leather chest armour, which I may spend the money on instead. I may have enough left over for another sword, in the mean time ;D
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Post by rammstein on Nov 8, 2007 20:39:27 GMT
A number of historians will swear to you that medeival swords were 20 lbs and were inferior to japanese swords. Doesn't make it true.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2007 20:44:42 GMT
Yes, but those are the same historians who sit in their offices and have never touched a sword in their lives. They may know squat about armored combat, but I'd think they might know about literacy rates in the dark ages. It seems like something those historians would be knowledgeable about, considering that the knowledge requires no first hand experience. ;D
Seriously, I would never want to become that kind of history teacher. I'd be the teacher who took the students on field trips to Ren Faires, and dressed in plate armor. ;D
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Post by rammstein on Nov 9, 2007 3:46:08 GMT
My dream is to become the museum curator of the Deutches Klingenmuseum in Solingen, Germany. I wonder why You're right, I just wanted to point out that just because someone authoritative says something doesn't make it true....
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Post by jpfranco on Nov 10, 2007 0:47:52 GMT
Hey Rammstein, if one person says it maybe, but it seems to be a somehow general consensus that during the "Dark Ages" the Goths way of life took over and the Roman , or Latin ways were somehow lost. One of the Ostrogoth emperor, Theodoric, said before he was assassinated :"Useful is the Goth that uses the Roman ways but, useless is the Roman using the Goth's ways."
This statement could be some kind of "confirmation" that the Goths wanted to forget the Roman ways, which included a common language and alphabet (Latin)
Just my (and Theodoric) two cents
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2007 3:34:12 GMT
Thanks for the advice. I did some poking around on a few uk sites, and it seems that plate does actually work out around the same price (if you buy carefully). Although, I recently came across a site selling rather fabulous leather armour that is currently designing personalised leather chest armour, which I may spend the money on instead. I may have enough left over for another sword, in the mean time ;D What site for the leather armor?
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Post by rammstein on Nov 10, 2007 3:42:53 GMT
JP, don't worry I'm semi-aware of that. I'm just throwing arguments out on the table
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2007 15:16:34 GMT
The older versions of plate were discarded for maille not because they were more protective or more flexible, but because they were cheaper. If labor is cheap, but metal is expensive, then maille is the way to go. This was the case with the Romans and the Dark Ages. Only at the height of the empire could the Romans actually afford to outfit large numbers of their soldiers with plate.
This trend holds in the East as well. The Japanese didn't use lamellar armor because it was better than plate. They used it because metal was hard to come by in the Home Islands. When the Europeans showed up and good steel became more available, you see a shift to more plate armor because it became economically viable.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 15:24:17 GMT
Most of the above people have hit on the right answers.
Butted maille is not historically accurate, because it simply didnt protect enough. You tend to spend more when your life depended on it. They also didnt have things like minimum wage, so it is possible to get lots of apprentices with nothing better to do than rivet a ton of tiny rings (especially when you have nifty pliers which do it for you). The only existing butted maille finds are a 16th century standard (maille neck protection) designed for parade use only, and pre-Greek Gaul find (aka pre 400BC Europe).
COPs, brigs and the like started to evolve around the 13th century (as stated earlier). The earliest find is the effigy of St. Maurice, which isnt even a true Coat of Plates, but more of a surcoat with plates added.
Dark ages were not called that due to the lack of knowledge. They were referred to that because of the lack of our knowledge about those times. There are about 6 major finds covering the fall of Rome to about 800AD.
The reason that, from the fall of Rome to about the 3rd Crusade, maille was the dominant armour was because of the practice of producing iron. The reason being that the cultures were not nearly as tied down, or as technologically minded in the same way as their earlier counterparts. Producing blooms of iron compared to bronze is quite a bit harder, but once swords/spears/slashy-pokey things got to the point that bronze was not much of a defense, maille made of iron protected better.
Maille protects quite a bit, but the main defense during this time was your shield. Maille would be the last defense option. Wearing a gambeson, a couple of thick wool tunics or other padding also does wonders. And this comes from a guy who fights SCA fighting, with essentially baseball bats, at one of the highest power levels across WMA groups.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Dec 18, 2007 17:22:05 GMT
im making my own hauberk of butted maille. making the rings really sucks but i dont mind linking them together. it takes a while. ive been at mine for 5 days and im about 4 inches below my armpits. ive already used 550 feet of 12 guage wire. i just have to figure out how to join the sleeves in the arm pit. apparently its the trickiest part...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2007 18:41:09 GMT
Jak, 12 gage may be too heavy. Most butted mail is in the 16 gage range.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Dec 18, 2007 19:32:48 GMT
yeah it is a bit thick but its coming out nicely. its good practice. i intend to do a riveted one soon. i found this site. home.scarlet.be/~klauwaer/malien/engels.htmlid like to get a set of these tools but for now butted is good enough to get a feel for designing it to fit me
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2007 1:44:49 GMT
Once you make the pliers, you might want to check out Historicenterprises.com, as they carry wedge rivet rings that you can rivet together yourself.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Dec 21, 2007 2:18:39 GMT
yeah, the pliers for riveting would be easy to make....but $30 for a lb. of rings is a hefty sum. if the final weight of the hauberk was even 20 lb youd be better off just buying a pre-made one
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 5:22:50 GMT
Not really. That is $600, but you can custom make it to yourself.
BTW, not sure if you are into riveted or welded, but just met a guy who is doing welded maille for that price (aka. each link is welded together). Not as historically accurate, but they dont break almost at all. Looking to be about the same price as above for a shirt.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 0:25:47 GMT
Most of what has been said here is true, and butted maille, as well as being weaker than riveted maille, is also historically inaccurate. Here's a good site with lots of info about maille, and should keep you busy for a while: www.modaruniversity.org/Blackmaille.htmPlenty of stuff in there about making maille. Having said that, not all butted maille is created equal. I have had some success making maille out of spring washers: The advantage is that unlike the links that people make themselves out of galvanized wire and such, these spring washers are, well, springs. True, fence wire does work harden to an extent when it's wound around the mandrel, but these suckers are very very tough indeed. Making maille out of them is horrible. They are very hard to bend, and each one has to be bent open and then closed. If you heat them with a torch and allow them to cool, they become easier to bend, but obviously lose their temper and are thus a lot weaker. In their natural state though, they are incredibly tough. When you think that period riveted maille was made of iron, butted maille made from spring washers probably isn't too far behind in terms of strength (although riveted will always be stronger) I too have seen maille made from fence wire come apart under its own weight, but spring washer maille absolutely will not. Here's a photo of a small piece that I made recently as a keychain. The links are 8mm ID. I have stripped the zinc and blackened the maille, but the effect hasn't turned out that well in the photo: The largest item I have made from these washers is a belt, and it took over a week for the blisters on my hands to heal afterwards! I have thrown the belt over a bar and hung my 14'2" body weight on it, and the maille didn't budge one little bit. It's not the most expedient or authentic method of making maille, but it's way stronger than the average butted maille.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 0:42:10 GMT
+1, doc, on the "springmaille." Great idea!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 1:05:18 GMT
+1, doc, on the "springmaille." Great idea! Thanks, but I'm afraid I didn't invent the idea. I went to a battle re enactment and some of the people there were using them. I've worn a hauberk made from these, and it was pretty heavy, I've read that period maille was lighter than modern butted maille because butted maille needs thicker wire. It makes me wonder if period maille was really that much stronger than steel butted maille. From what I understand, it was made from iron, not steel. If the wire was also thinner, then it might have been easier to cut than we may think. I dug out a photo of the belt I made: In case you're wondering about the 'background', it's sitting on a pizza box because I had just soaked it in motor oil. As you can see, it's normal european 4 into 1, and the links are the same 8mm ID ones in the photos above. It's really strong, especially considering it's only 5 links wide. This has reminded me, I really must finish that belt... The only real downside is how hard it is to bend the links. I'm thinking it might be good to anneal them, make them into maille, and then heat treat the finished maille to a spring temper. Heat treated maille would be awesome!
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