Deepeeka Primus 15th Century Rondel Dagger
Jul 2, 2013 20:21:13 GMT
Post by Beowulf on Jul 2, 2013 20:21:13 GMT
Firstly, I am not affiliated with Kult of Athena, Deepeeka Exports nor Sword Buyer's Guide.
I will not be putting any pictures in this unless someone is merciless with their complaints. Kult of Athena has excellent pictures, and so does the Primus Arms page (and Royal Armouries).
Royal Armouries original collections.royalarmouries.org/i ... 6MDt9&pg=1
Primus Arms www.primusarms.com/index.htm
Kult of Athena listing www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... del+Dagger
This is a review of Deepeeka's Primus Line Rondel Dagger. Deepeeka Exports is an Indian company that, among other things, does reproduction arms and armour from various periods and cultures. It is known that Deepeeka has in the past worked closely with various Roman reenactment groups, improving their Roman wares significantly. The opinion of Deepeeka amongst the current Roman reenactors varies; some will tell you their Roman swords are more than adequate for parade/show function and light use, while others will say that the swords are worth purchase for the accurate scabbards (for other higher end weapons) and the Deepeeka sword that comes with the scabbard is a bonus.
I have always found looking through Deepeeka's wares to be a fun occasional pastime, but as a historical fencer and sword pseudo-expert I have never considered purchasing a piece from them for anything other than harvesting hilt components. Recently I became aware of a new line of western oriented weapons from Deepeeka called the Primus Line. These are claimed to be made by Deepeeka's top smiths and are quality checked twice before shipping. Also, and importantly, they have brought in western weapon experts for consultation and have gone as far as to replicate museum artifacts- and check their copies side by side with the originals in at least some cases. It is important to note that these new Primus Line weapons are deemed as "battle ready" by Deepeeka, and though they do not use the more exotic modern steels or tempering proccesses they ARE claimed to be adequately tempered and of good basic steel stock. There are several tempting viking-culture and Norman weapons in this new line that honestly look good enough for the price and very very tempting to me- if I could but find a "sharp" one in stock anywhere at this time. They also have a really nice Scottish Targe in the Primus Line and finally the 15th Century Rondel Dagger.
What is it?
The original for this dagger resides in the Royal Armouries at Leeds, England. It is thought to be from the late 15th century and English. The original is slightly beat up, but nicely intact. Rondel daggers as anything else went through an evolution and/or stylistic change. Early daggers might not have much of a back rondel and might in fact sport a pommel, later it seems for the most part that they had equally sized rondel-plates, then in their final arc they seemed to sometimes have a larger back rondel which seems to require you to use them in an "ice-pick" grip only. Some rondel daggers had single edged blades with robust spines, others double edged blades and the last sub-set were of a triangular or diamond cross section spike blade configuration.
Rondel daggers were not exclusively knightly weapons. There is much artwork showing cobblers, masons and other tradesmen/merchants carrying one on their belt. Neither was there a rigid size restriction for them. A few rondels are short sword sized, most military versions are medium to longish and perhaps logic dictates that civilian versions might not be incredibly large, being part fashion and part defensive weapon. Some military rondel daggers have slightly long looking handles to fit in an armoured hand.
If your not familiar I invite you to look at some fightbook images of the rondel dagger is use, it can be pretty wild looking. The ancients seem to have slightly expanded values for fighting knives compared to modern people. They seemed to value the edge to cut and slash with, the point to stab with and the length of the blade and/or weapon to use for joint locks, assistance in hooking and throwing an opponent and causing pain and perhaps breaking bones by trapping a wrist or forearm between the blade and one's own forearm or wrist, pressing and perhaps crushing the trapped appendage with the assistance of the off hand clamped over the trapping blade. Some of these techniques are reminiscent of police baton use and others remind me slightly of some Special Forces knife techniques.
The hilts of rondel daggers were made of many materials. There were metal furnishings with wooden or bone grips, all metal hilts of steel or latten ("copper alloy" in museum-speak, generally something that is somewhere in the family of Bronze or Brass) and finally hilts mostly of wood or bone often augmented and made stouter with metal at key places known to take abuse.
So really what is it?
This particular one looks civilian to me. It has a well made, slightly embellished yet simple hilt of separate turned wood pieces, with a brass plate at the base of the blade covering the front of the front rondel, and a very large bowled or convex disk of heavier gauge steel pinned/riveted to the back of the large top rondel. It is a smaller weapon, but by no means too small to use. It has a diamond cross section edgeless spike for a blade. My impression of it was initially that it was a little ugly, but when I recieved the dagger it was no more than five minutes before I fell in love with it. I could easily see this in a cutler's shop in the 15th century, displayed with twelve of it's near-identical brothers. Something for the middle class man of London to keep at his waist as he went about his daily affairs. If the messer and grossemesser was the everyman's weapon this is the everyman's back up weapon and middle class status symbol.
Accuracy
This is based on X.1708 in the Royal Armouries collection. I have only found three pictures of the original weapon so far. Two pictures are of it from the side, apparently different sides, and one picture of it actually next to Deepeeka's prototype of this weapon, alas not the highest resolution or most detailed picture. The front rondel of this piece is a little different from the original, sporting a sharp edge on one of the turned bevels instead of a flat right angled surface as on the original. This seems to be the only difference between the two pieces. The handle and the back rondel seem to capture the original's shapes nicely, albeit with the reproduction being crisp in execution and not centuries old rounded and slightly gouged wood. I have taken a picture of the original and one of the reproduction and using a graphical manipulation program placed them side by side and one over the other one to check the accuracy: pretty good, almost spot on except where noted. As to the size: there is no data at the RA for the original. The Deepeeka picture of the two together suggests at least the prototype was slightly larger overall than the artifact. I do not know if this carried over into the production piece, if it did then I would say an improvement, this is a smaller rondel than my military rondels and thus would benefit from the size increase. Any smaller and this would not fit in my particular hand.
Quality
Please bear in mind I have not abuse tested this. However, using my trusty and well hardened pocket knife I was able to make scratches in the tip of the blade without much effort. Taking my file to it I was able to quickly (within four to five strokes) start marking and removing metal. This does not skate a file. Is it hardened? I am not sure. It does not seem softer than any of my old Windlass sword blades. But I have no further way to test for hardness. If you have suggestions I am game. The hilt is well formed and well constructed and the nearly all-wood construction does not worry me that it will come apart with use. The blade is well shaped, there is a slight raised anomaly near the hilt on one bevel and there is a 2 centimeter length of edge that is slightly curved towards the hilt. The blade itself seems to be formed identically to the original. The very end of the tip is left blunt by way of parting the bevels that form the two "edges". In other words, this is not a blunt clown banana of a blade. I should be able to put a wicked point on it in a half an hour with a file and no one would be the wiser that it was shipped blunt. The conclusion: This piece was $70 to me with shipping. I am happy with it so far.
The steel end cap is flush with the back wooden rondel. The brass plate is also flush with the front rondel. The whole thing feels good in the hand. The edges of the hilting are crisp and not overly hurried in construction- no ragged edges on the lathed parts. The steel end cap is well formed with no lumps or anomalies. The steel rivets are nicely shaped with what appears to be tiny metal (iron? dark steel?) washers made of butted wire? under the rivet caps to create a good total fit between the rivets and the steel end cap as the rivets are through the end cap. There are fine scratches on all metal components, what do you expect for $60? I'll probably polish these out and it will be a quick job. The wood itself is an unknown species. It is dark, probably stained, and my thumbnail does not leave an impression in it when I try and gouge it. The wood is also tight grained without much in the way of any open cells detracting from the surface. I have two knots in the wood, both of them tiny and tight so they do not detract from the quality at all. The back rondel is crooked by 1/4/ millimeter. No daylight shows through the joins of any components and barely through the slight crooked join- and you have to hunt for it. No glue clumps. Carefully and neatly put together.
The scabbard is a simple all leather affair, hand stitched up one side, with a hanging lanyard/loop and long leather thong of unknown use that pierces the base of the hanging loop. Is it to tie off onto the hilt to keep it from falling out of the scabbard? It is to tie onto a belt to custom make a hanging angle? I have no idea. The scabbard is tight. There is no way I could currently free the weapon from the scabbard one handed with it hanging from a belt. I do appreciate the scabbard, but I may try my hand at making a wood and leather replacement for it if the weapon itself ends up being hardened. One important thing: rondel daggers in fightbooks are often suspended by what looks to be lace or string weight little belts. They often hang down the middle of the back on the end of another very thin lanyard generally about three to four inches long. Because of this I am sort of particular about how a rondel dagger in the scabbard hangs when held up freely by the lanyard. My thought is that it would be best if while in the scabbard the rondel is sort of neutral and balances equally from handle to scabbard tip. The lanyard on this scabbard is purposefully tilted towards the hilt. When held up in the air you can see it fighting the weight of the hilt a bit. End result, it is not totally balanced and neutral, a bit hilt heavy, but the lanyard does a good job to make the whole thing tilt down hilt-side just a little bit. I could use this as-is. With a custom scabbard? Well, I'd have to put a metal chape on the end of the scabbard to counter-weight the hilt, but no big deal.
There is a nice little bonus of a faux maker's mark near the base of the blade. The RA description mentioned the form of the maker's mark but it does not appear in the photos. On this piece it looks like a flowery/gothic script of the letter "P". I believe the original is inlaid. A nice bonus.
Conclusion
I like it. It was worth the price paid. It is not a Tod's Stuff custom rondel dagger, nor is it something from Albion or A&A. But if it ends up that the blade is indeed hardened I will feel that I got more than my money's worth. If it is a soft blade? Hey- it IS a good replica. I cannot say this is an absolute copy, but I can say that this is a sibling, made by the same weapon maker, just another one. he made the RA one before lunch and this is the one he made that afternoon. That's pretty close and pretty conceivable. I have seen five or more "identical" rondel daggers in German museums made by the same workshop, each a different length, each with their own personality even though they are one and the same.
Thanks for reading
I will not be putting any pictures in this unless someone is merciless with their complaints. Kult of Athena has excellent pictures, and so does the Primus Arms page (and Royal Armouries).
Royal Armouries original collections.royalarmouries.org/i ... 6MDt9&pg=1
Primus Arms www.primusarms.com/index.htm
Kult of Athena listing www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... del+Dagger
This is a review of Deepeeka's Primus Line Rondel Dagger. Deepeeka Exports is an Indian company that, among other things, does reproduction arms and armour from various periods and cultures. It is known that Deepeeka has in the past worked closely with various Roman reenactment groups, improving their Roman wares significantly. The opinion of Deepeeka amongst the current Roman reenactors varies; some will tell you their Roman swords are more than adequate for parade/show function and light use, while others will say that the swords are worth purchase for the accurate scabbards (for other higher end weapons) and the Deepeeka sword that comes with the scabbard is a bonus.
I have always found looking through Deepeeka's wares to be a fun occasional pastime, but as a historical fencer and sword pseudo-expert I have never considered purchasing a piece from them for anything other than harvesting hilt components. Recently I became aware of a new line of western oriented weapons from Deepeeka called the Primus Line. These are claimed to be made by Deepeeka's top smiths and are quality checked twice before shipping. Also, and importantly, they have brought in western weapon experts for consultation and have gone as far as to replicate museum artifacts- and check their copies side by side with the originals in at least some cases. It is important to note that these new Primus Line weapons are deemed as "battle ready" by Deepeeka, and though they do not use the more exotic modern steels or tempering proccesses they ARE claimed to be adequately tempered and of good basic steel stock. There are several tempting viking-culture and Norman weapons in this new line that honestly look good enough for the price and very very tempting to me- if I could but find a "sharp" one in stock anywhere at this time. They also have a really nice Scottish Targe in the Primus Line and finally the 15th Century Rondel Dagger.
What is it?
The original for this dagger resides in the Royal Armouries at Leeds, England. It is thought to be from the late 15th century and English. The original is slightly beat up, but nicely intact. Rondel daggers as anything else went through an evolution and/or stylistic change. Early daggers might not have much of a back rondel and might in fact sport a pommel, later it seems for the most part that they had equally sized rondel-plates, then in their final arc they seemed to sometimes have a larger back rondel which seems to require you to use them in an "ice-pick" grip only. Some rondel daggers had single edged blades with robust spines, others double edged blades and the last sub-set were of a triangular or diamond cross section spike blade configuration.
Rondel daggers were not exclusively knightly weapons. There is much artwork showing cobblers, masons and other tradesmen/merchants carrying one on their belt. Neither was there a rigid size restriction for them. A few rondels are short sword sized, most military versions are medium to longish and perhaps logic dictates that civilian versions might not be incredibly large, being part fashion and part defensive weapon. Some military rondel daggers have slightly long looking handles to fit in an armoured hand.
If your not familiar I invite you to look at some fightbook images of the rondel dagger is use, it can be pretty wild looking. The ancients seem to have slightly expanded values for fighting knives compared to modern people. They seemed to value the edge to cut and slash with, the point to stab with and the length of the blade and/or weapon to use for joint locks, assistance in hooking and throwing an opponent and causing pain and perhaps breaking bones by trapping a wrist or forearm between the blade and one's own forearm or wrist, pressing and perhaps crushing the trapped appendage with the assistance of the off hand clamped over the trapping blade. Some of these techniques are reminiscent of police baton use and others remind me slightly of some Special Forces knife techniques.
The hilts of rondel daggers were made of many materials. There were metal furnishings with wooden or bone grips, all metal hilts of steel or latten ("copper alloy" in museum-speak, generally something that is somewhere in the family of Bronze or Brass) and finally hilts mostly of wood or bone often augmented and made stouter with metal at key places known to take abuse.
So really what is it?
This particular one looks civilian to me. It has a well made, slightly embellished yet simple hilt of separate turned wood pieces, with a brass plate at the base of the blade covering the front of the front rondel, and a very large bowled or convex disk of heavier gauge steel pinned/riveted to the back of the large top rondel. It is a smaller weapon, but by no means too small to use. It has a diamond cross section edgeless spike for a blade. My impression of it was initially that it was a little ugly, but when I recieved the dagger it was no more than five minutes before I fell in love with it. I could easily see this in a cutler's shop in the 15th century, displayed with twelve of it's near-identical brothers. Something for the middle class man of London to keep at his waist as he went about his daily affairs. If the messer and grossemesser was the everyman's weapon this is the everyman's back up weapon and middle class status symbol.
Accuracy
This is based on X.1708 in the Royal Armouries collection. I have only found three pictures of the original weapon so far. Two pictures are of it from the side, apparently different sides, and one picture of it actually next to Deepeeka's prototype of this weapon, alas not the highest resolution or most detailed picture. The front rondel of this piece is a little different from the original, sporting a sharp edge on one of the turned bevels instead of a flat right angled surface as on the original. This seems to be the only difference between the two pieces. The handle and the back rondel seem to capture the original's shapes nicely, albeit with the reproduction being crisp in execution and not centuries old rounded and slightly gouged wood. I have taken a picture of the original and one of the reproduction and using a graphical manipulation program placed them side by side and one over the other one to check the accuracy: pretty good, almost spot on except where noted. As to the size: there is no data at the RA for the original. The Deepeeka picture of the two together suggests at least the prototype was slightly larger overall than the artifact. I do not know if this carried over into the production piece, if it did then I would say an improvement, this is a smaller rondel than my military rondels and thus would benefit from the size increase. Any smaller and this would not fit in my particular hand.
Quality
Please bear in mind I have not abuse tested this. However, using my trusty and well hardened pocket knife I was able to make scratches in the tip of the blade without much effort. Taking my file to it I was able to quickly (within four to five strokes) start marking and removing metal. This does not skate a file. Is it hardened? I am not sure. It does not seem softer than any of my old Windlass sword blades. But I have no further way to test for hardness. If you have suggestions I am game. The hilt is well formed and well constructed and the nearly all-wood construction does not worry me that it will come apart with use. The blade is well shaped, there is a slight raised anomaly near the hilt on one bevel and there is a 2 centimeter length of edge that is slightly curved towards the hilt. The blade itself seems to be formed identically to the original. The very end of the tip is left blunt by way of parting the bevels that form the two "edges". In other words, this is not a blunt clown banana of a blade. I should be able to put a wicked point on it in a half an hour with a file and no one would be the wiser that it was shipped blunt. The conclusion: This piece was $70 to me with shipping. I am happy with it so far.
The steel end cap is flush with the back wooden rondel. The brass plate is also flush with the front rondel. The whole thing feels good in the hand. The edges of the hilting are crisp and not overly hurried in construction- no ragged edges on the lathed parts. The steel end cap is well formed with no lumps or anomalies. The steel rivets are nicely shaped with what appears to be tiny metal (iron? dark steel?) washers made of butted wire? under the rivet caps to create a good total fit between the rivets and the steel end cap as the rivets are through the end cap. There are fine scratches on all metal components, what do you expect for $60? I'll probably polish these out and it will be a quick job. The wood itself is an unknown species. It is dark, probably stained, and my thumbnail does not leave an impression in it when I try and gouge it. The wood is also tight grained without much in the way of any open cells detracting from the surface. I have two knots in the wood, both of them tiny and tight so they do not detract from the quality at all. The back rondel is crooked by 1/4/ millimeter. No daylight shows through the joins of any components and barely through the slight crooked join- and you have to hunt for it. No glue clumps. Carefully and neatly put together.
The scabbard is a simple all leather affair, hand stitched up one side, with a hanging lanyard/loop and long leather thong of unknown use that pierces the base of the hanging loop. Is it to tie off onto the hilt to keep it from falling out of the scabbard? It is to tie onto a belt to custom make a hanging angle? I have no idea. The scabbard is tight. There is no way I could currently free the weapon from the scabbard one handed with it hanging from a belt. I do appreciate the scabbard, but I may try my hand at making a wood and leather replacement for it if the weapon itself ends up being hardened. One important thing: rondel daggers in fightbooks are often suspended by what looks to be lace or string weight little belts. They often hang down the middle of the back on the end of another very thin lanyard generally about three to four inches long. Because of this I am sort of particular about how a rondel dagger in the scabbard hangs when held up freely by the lanyard. My thought is that it would be best if while in the scabbard the rondel is sort of neutral and balances equally from handle to scabbard tip. The lanyard on this scabbard is purposefully tilted towards the hilt. When held up in the air you can see it fighting the weight of the hilt a bit. End result, it is not totally balanced and neutral, a bit hilt heavy, but the lanyard does a good job to make the whole thing tilt down hilt-side just a little bit. I could use this as-is. With a custom scabbard? Well, I'd have to put a metal chape on the end of the scabbard to counter-weight the hilt, but no big deal.
There is a nice little bonus of a faux maker's mark near the base of the blade. The RA description mentioned the form of the maker's mark but it does not appear in the photos. On this piece it looks like a flowery/gothic script of the letter "P". I believe the original is inlaid. A nice bonus.
Conclusion
I like it. It was worth the price paid. It is not a Tod's Stuff custom rondel dagger, nor is it something from Albion or A&A. But if it ends up that the blade is indeed hardened I will feel that I got more than my money's worth. If it is a soft blade? Hey- it IS a good replica. I cannot say this is an absolute copy, but I can say that this is a sibling, made by the same weapon maker, just another one. he made the RA one before lunch and this is the one he made that afternoon. That's pretty close and pretty conceivable. I have seen five or more "identical" rondel daggers in German museums made by the same workshop, each a different length, each with their own personality even though they are one and the same.
Thanks for reading