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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 16:37:39 GMT
Tsafa...I'm sure there were good fighters in the austrilian army (about 30 fighters)...but as a whole...yeah I'll use BW words of F***tards. No discipline at all...even less so then our cowboy groups(and really discipline is key in an army). And their overall skill was not high enough to go, okay, be cowboys and go get killed gloriously while being a good distraction. Because lets be honest here, most of our best individual fighters would rather not be in a shield wall or pike line. So basically we use em as hero units . Not realistic at all I know...but it's still fun. Although the scholar part of me prefers analysing the shield wall and pike line fighting more since really that lets you LIVE. Not that SCA wars are particularly historical mind you...but you get glimpses where you can and try to extrapolate the rest. Also seeing that video (and others) that you guys in the east seems to use your arms more then we do in the west. Oh and the wrap...god what fun it was arguing the validity of using one of these in combat. You lose so much velocity pulling one of those off with a sword (the rounded shape of the rattan sword helps this shot so much that it's not even funny) that while the concussive blast might hurt, it would not be a "kill" shot and with the slow recovery afterwards...yeah but it was so hard to get past the but it works with a rattan sword bias. Thats why the wrap has been slowly falling out of favor in the west...but I'm sure there will always be people who will use it because it works with the rattan. BW...I wouldn't discount that western fighters didn't kick and punch and grapple when the need arised. Just because no formal martial survived like in the east doesn't mean they didn't think to use EVERYTHING available to live . Although having done so many different styles, I tend to fight a bit wierd anytime I spar. Adam, the minium armor in SCA is pretty close to no armor (head, neck, kidney, knee and elbow and hands are all that needs to be covered). I have done fights in this with others where we calibrate things a bit differently to simulate unarmored combat a bit better. But these thing are done at local fighter practices under very close supervison. The general rule is there to protect the general SCA community. And to use as a standard for various groups gathering to do things together. But on a local level, we do still experiments to try and learn things better. We have scholars as well as people who like hitting others with sticks (and yes being in a big area helps)
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Post by rammstein on Feb 10, 2008 16:39:47 GMT
Actually, the MSs do show quite a bit of kicking and punching. Adam, isn't your avatar from a MS?
Then I'd suggest they start fighting like it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 16:53:35 GMT
Why? It is simply personal preference on what people wear. What does it matter what they wear, if they all calibrate to the same blow standard.
Also, how is us portraying nobles off the field a strike against how we fight? One has nothing to do with the other, and allows everyone to fight in tournaments (reserved for noblemen). I believe our technical rules state that anyone can claim to be of "the third estate", aka. third born son/daughter of noblemen.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 19:08:41 GMT
Pretty pic, Adam, but it doesn't really mean what you want it to in relation to your argument. However, as it would not be on the point of the thread to teach you why that is the case, I will refrain from discussing it any more.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 10, 2008 19:26:35 GMT
Swaade, pleasepost why you feel it's incorrect, considering that that description is used by most who know anything about distribution of mass in swords.
If you'd like to challenge a belief that's pretty well founded in reality, I suggest you back it up.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 19:43:18 GMT
I do have some additional information for the discussion:
This is a some thoughts on the history of medieval swordsmanship by a modern Italian master, Massimo Malipiero, who I had the pleasure of studying some time ago (it is somewhat paraphrased from the original Italian text): Probably most techniques of combat with the sword in the first part of the Middle Ages date back to those methods used by the German tribes that invaded Europe. From the 5th Century AD onwards, the Goths, the Lombards, the Franks, expert warriors with their long swords and shield, spread their techniques of duel as a way of solving offenses to honor asking for God’s judgment (judicial combat) all over Europe. The development of mounted combat techniques favored the rise of the armored knight. Devoting his whole life exclusively to combat, the knight gained experience in every kind of duel with any weapon, on foot and above all on horseback, and trained every day, even in times of peace. Fierce tournaments on horseback resulting in death and injury, together with hunting, characterized the favorite past-times of the medieval nobleman until the 13th Century/beginning of the 14th Century. In this period the use of sword and shield prevails; where the sword was an offensive weapon and the shield a defensive one. After the late 14th Century, the even more frequent use of the two-handed-sword determined the beginning of the first form of true fencing, the long sword was an offensive and defensive weapon with a complicated system of positions or stances. The swordsmanship of 14th -15th Centuries, even though it had a high degree of technique, was still based mostly upon body strength. The prevalence of ferocious cut blows is still supported by the introduction of the Gioco Stretto (combat with body contact) a technique of medieval wrestling with the sword that facilitated the bringing to the ground an adversary in full armor
-Continued
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Post by rammstein on Feb 10, 2008 19:47:27 GMT
Well I can show you numerous texts that state similar things by so called "experts." Doesn't make them true.
That opinion has been refuted relatively recently and it bugs most of those in the know that it still comes up. However, it is an indesputable fact that information like this is presented by people who have little grasp on actual medieval combat - armchair historians, so to speak. Just bewcause he calls himself "an italian master" doesn't make him one. In fact, the fact that he calls himself a "master" at all shows definitevely that he has no idea what he's talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 19:51:47 GMT
He didn't say that he called himself a master. swwade said that he was a master. Fiore and Talhoffer didn't refer to themselves as masters (I think), but we do. If they did refer to themselves as such, then I guess they have " no idea about what they were talking about" either.
How is this any different? Read it closely.
Alternatively there are several modern swordsmans I would refer to as masters. They would probably not agree with me, but we still think of them as such.
As for "arm chair" historians, I could call you one too. You have all these opinions about how medieval combat techniques were used, but you openly admit to not wanting to actually practice them. That makes you an armchair historian in my book.
Without practical first-hand experience of learning these techniques, you have no authority to make opinions about such.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 20:19:10 GMT
On modern recreations of medieval combat:
Where they exist, precise documents such as manuals and treatises can be risky (difficult) to both correctly interpret as well as correctly reproduce what they tell us. Because these documents are often narrated in complex language that is much different from today's usage, it is necessary to use deep historical knowledge and philology to interpret them correctly, otherwise you risk making misleading similarities with modern techniques. That happens when, in order to facilitate our understanding, we make reference to modern martial arts techniques. Much caution should be used in order to not run the risk of reconstructing the ancient art of the duel using movements and defenses that did not exist. Moreover, what we possess of written records, though sufficient and precious, are only a small piece of a much wider world and variety where there was not a unified fencing art, but tens (dozens) of methods derived from different masters, also incredible anachronisms that bear comparison between not only schools, but also ages.
Basically, I think what we can say is that the fighting systems of pre 13th century Europe were primarily fought with sword and shield, based on dark age combat, and that even reproducing with any accuracy the later period that is documented, is extremely difficult. Besides which, the very few manuals that we have access to, is a drop in the pond compared to the different techniques used in different areas at different times.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 20:27:50 GMT
Just bewcause he calls himself "an italian master" doesn't make him one. In fact, the fact that he calls himself a "master" at all shows definitevely that he has no idea what he's talking about. Actually, Massimo earned the title 'Magister Re'(Maestro di scherma antica) from the Italian National Academy of fencing (Accademia Nazionale di Scherma). -and that shows you have no idea what YOU are talking about.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 10, 2008 20:37:32 GMT
www.accademianazionalescherma.it/index_en.htmlOh please. Get real, here, swwade. I don't deny I'm an arm chair historian, however I take advice and learn from people in the know rather than drawing my sources from outdated and erroneous information. And where the hell are you all getting the idea that I've got no practical experience? You're right, I have no interest in partaking in it any more, but I've still got a few years of training in german longsword, some rapier, as well as *gasp* SCA-like activity from SCA members. I'm not completely disnegaged from reality as many'd like to think. You can't forget that we are practicing a dead art in an era where it is no longer needed. This art has been dead for centuries, and only now is it being revivied through period sources. Lichtenauer is referred to by many period sources as a master, and I'll take them at their word. One cannot be a master today studying an art that is dead through mere interpretations. We can approximate but it is very arrogant to assume someone is a master and even more so to accept being called one. DI, one doesn't need cancer to disgnose the symptoms. My opinions are backed up by numrerous claims by those who actually participate in recreation of historical arts, you know that well enough. Swwade, I'm sure you're familiar with the expression "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 20:42:49 GMT
I love Rammstein's tact Hit em high, hit em low, buddy!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 20:45:25 GMT
I'm sure you're familiar with the expression "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." Yes, I was aware of it before you were born, it is advise you should take to heart.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 10, 2008 20:45:33 GMT
I love Rammstein's tact Hit em high, hit em low, buddy! Well if they plan on taking offense because reality doesn't support their nonesense, I can't help that. Ah, swwade, do I detect a hint of anger that you're being outsmarted by someone younger? tsk tsk, you should know very well that age means nothing in educational debate, and you're not helping yourself a lick by trying to bully me with the "I'm older than you, therefore I'm right" argument. Don't worry, I'll pretend like you didn't say that. This is becoming a flame fest, now, and since I've got nothing new to add, I'm gonig to back out. I only hope that you spend some time discussing this with educated people and you may learn something. Talking to a modern fencing institution doesn't count.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 20:52:38 GMT
Some information for those reading this who do not labor under the delusion of their own importance. Maestro Malipiero is the author of the only manual based on the Getty version of Liberi's 'Fior di Battiglia', although it is only available in Italian. He also founded his own school dedicated to historical fencing in 1995, www.malipiero.com/ , I think we can discount the idea that he is an 'armchair historian'.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 10, 2008 21:16:23 GMT
He labors under the pretense that medieval fighting is based on strength and brute force. That's untrue.
That said, I'm back to help translate a piece of the site everyone may find interesting:
Under "La Compania," read "Cosa Facciamo" (what do we do?). In summary, it says along the lines that they analyze historical documents and criticize the cinematic effects used to day that poorly represent sword fighting. They also spar at full speed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 22:59:13 GMT
I think that it is hard to argue that hand to hand combat in not based on strength and brute force. Hand to hand combat is always brutal. I do think that skill and training can make the application of that brute force more effective. All the skill in the world will not kill a man if you don't ultimately drive your weapon forcefully into him in one way or another. I think a good illustration is the way cops break up riots. When things get rough, there in not much finessing going on. In riots cops are instructed to use the least force necessary and yet it still becomes a brutal affair. There is just no way around it. You have to use muscle. I think the only time you can really finesse someone to death is with a rapier or a small sword and no armor at all is used (at all). You can make a tiny puncture-hole through vital organs but in many case that will still not stop a person from striking back at you. You need to control their weapon before you attack. Medieval combat is a whole other animal. These were very brutal people in fighting. I have no interest in partaking in it any more, but I've still got a few years of training in german longsword, some rapier, as well as *gasp* SCA-like activity from SCA members. I'm not completely disnegaged from reality as many'd like to think. Rammstein... when did this all happen? You are only 17. Do you mean to tell us you started training at 12, lol. No fibbing please. Swwade, that was a very interesting quote from Maestro Malipiero. I had not heard of him up until now. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
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Post by rammstein on Feb 10, 2008 23:20:39 GMT
Yes, I've been training since 11 or 12.
We've got a private group here.
Look at Taj, he's 13 and knows quite a bit about JSA and is an active participant/. It's not totally unheard of.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2008 23:24:23 GMT
Actually, it basically says:
We are often fascinated by the duels in the movies, but they have very little to do with fencing. We try , through the study of historical documents, to reproduce the art of ancient fencing, And with the use of armaments that through weight, material and dimension are as close to the originals as possible. In duelling displays, it is easy to grab the attention of the audience through buffoonish acts. Through accurate execution of movements,(never choreographed, but only free style) the research of the armaments, and the physical training, the company gives the passionate, and the student, a small piece of swordsman/soldiers life.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2008 0:04:45 GMT
Wow, threads here have a tendency to drift. Leave for one day, and someone else has grabbed the torch (and run into a building filled with what? Oh, no! Its hay! The flamefest of Armegeddon has begun!).
Getting slightly more back on track, does anyone have a link, or can paraphrase from a book, what exactly the context is for Lichtenaur's specialized dueling shields? I am interested in this, as it may provide a possible link. The fact that I disagree with the centergrip usage of the shield being a totally different issue.
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