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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 8, 2008 3:10:43 GMT
And in any event...two-handed, hand-n-a-half, bastard, longsword, greatsword, grete swerde are all just loosely applicable terms. They're an attempt to convey meaning when the object can't be seen and handled. Or they are just easy ways to refer to swords in conversation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2008 3:11:08 GMT
I could say a hand and a half sword could be between 6 and 12 inches in grip length and since neither of us have any sources, both are just as valid. yours is not nearly as valid as long as we have agreed on a definition of hand and a half (for example i used the language "a handle that fits one and a half hands" before making a range of above 4 and under 8 inches). like i said, 7 and a half inches could be a "grey area" not worth debating over. but generally speaking an 11 or twelve inch handle will accommidate both hands for anyone. if there is someone with hands bigger than that than they are an extreme outlier and when making general categories it is understood that some extreme outliers can be exceptions to the rule. again, this is in no way a reason to throw out categories all together. What I'm against is the strict lack of intermingling in categorization. Heck, even our medieval counterparts disagreed on what to call their weapons (Guissarme? Bill? etc.). i'm not quite sure what you mean by "strict lack of intermingling in categorization".... if you mean not allowing for wiggle room and not accepting that some things fit in more than one category.... i don't think anyone has argued for a "strick lack of intermingling in categorization". However, I feel if you absolutely "must" categorize swords, then harmonic balance and the overall feel is far and away more important than something like grip length thats cool. use those categories. it doesn't mean that we can't also have categories, or termenology, for grip length. Since there is no standard agreement on terminology in this case, it's far more confusing to make cookie cutter terms for swords which always have and always will be unique in the fact that they are not fully two handed nor fully one handed. the whole point of this discussion was a couple of forumites coming up with an agreement on terminology. standards have to be created, why shouldn't we involve ourselves in that process? i know similar discussions have been had on other forums like SFI and myarmory, and it seems to me that thanks to such discussions a lot of people have a pretty solid understanding and agreemont on of the modern use of terms like 'bastard'. I used that as an example of a benificial (not to mention UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED) tool even if it does provide negative restraints. they are only negative restraints if you think of categories as inflexible and 100% accurate. again, no one has argued here (or anywhere else to my knowledge) that we should do so. recognizing the limits of catigorization is all we need to do to avoid being negitavely restrained by specific categories
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Post by rammstein on Jan 8, 2008 3:41:37 GMT
Sorry, ain't got a pistol. Would that old M1 I've got work? What dope! I ain't got any dope! Seriously! I've got an eye infection man! And hormone years, pssh . Sorry david, I've got no idea what I meant by that term either ;P As I said, I'm all for different names as long as we all agree that a very significant amount of overlapping can occur. Something will never go from a longsword to a h&h in the difference of an inch. or even two inches. Probably not three, either, but that "may" be pushing it. Matters matters is the individual swords not the umbrella terminology. Au contrare, the majority end in something along the lines of "There is far too much overlap to be using D&D terms to strictly lump weapons together that are too closely related." In fact, I'd say many of the swords you'd call "h&hs" would be more similar to "two handed swords" (your category, not mine) than to other h&hs! btw - Peter Johnsson and the Albion crew seem to agree - www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/swords-albion-mark-nextgen.htm - look at the categories. Can we all agree on that? That's pretty much the only argument I was making here, hormonal or not (Damn, I feel like a semprini in heat!)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2008 5:57:00 GMT
bringing up albion's site is a great point here. there is no h&h category or anything. what one might label a h&h sword, if inclined to use the term as has been discussed, falls into the longsword category, as it should. albion is a maker of historically accurate swords and 'longsword' is a more historically appropriate term to apply to that category of swords than anything else. the length of the handle fully fitting two hands or not wasn't what being a longsword was about, though they were certainly all meant to function well when using both hands.
yes h&h and bastard, used as they are in this thread, are very modern terms and have really nothing to do with whether something is a longsword or not. h&h seems to me to be a perfectly legitimate modern collector's way to talk about one thing: the grip size of a sword (lets not forget that not all sword collectors are history buffs and that fantasy swords can be catogorized too).
perhaps h&h is newer termenology to be used by a growing sword collecting community, and that seems like a good thing to me (don't worry ramm i agree that we don't want to lose the historical aspects and termenology of swords, but there's room out there for things to go side by side i'd say)
and yes D&D's categories of swords are completely non historical and in many ways misleading to the unwary. but don't forget what they're for... its not about history, its about assigning variables to aspects of a game. one that was never meant to be realistic.
in case anyone is wondering (which you're probably not) swords in D&D are basically broken down into: small sword: 1d6 long sword: 1d8 bastard (h&h) sword: 1d10 great sword: 2d6
the numbers are simply the base damage caused by the weapon. 1d8 means one roll of an eight sided die. 2d6 means two six sided die. as you can see this is in no way interesting or valuable to a sword collector or anyone interested in actual swords, and it is not meant to be. longsword in this case is simply the game using a medieval sounding word that can easily be compared to a small sword (guess what, its longer)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2008 5:59:18 GMT
oh and sorry for all the long posts everyone... i know its off the topic of this thread and i hope no one's been bored to tears or getting anoyed reading them (hopefully you'd just stop reading first ) i was going to go snowboarding today... but then i didn't... so i've had some free time
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Post by rammstein on Jan 8, 2008 20:48:14 GMT
Bastard sword is 2d4 in Icewind dale, isn't it?
Ah, that was an amazing game....
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Post by septofclansinclair on Jan 8, 2008 20:51:26 GMT
I prefered Baldur's Gate 2. The only thing wrong with it was that it didn't have a 2 handed option for the bastard swords.
That and the horrible start dungeon. Took forever to get out of that thing!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2008 20:54:32 GMT
Bastard sword is 2d4 in Icewind dale, isn't it? I thought it was too. As well as in Baldur's Gate 1, 2 and Neverwinter Nights.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2008 21:06:21 GMT
I prefered Baldur's Gate 2. The only thing wrong with it was that it didn't have a 2 handed option for the bastard swords. i hate games that overly limit weapon uses... often depending on class or race or whatever.... i played champions of norrath a few months ago... standard stuff... pretty sub par in lots of ways though... most frustrating part was that my ranger couldn't use two handed swords! like he could run around with a sword and shield and switch it for a bow no problem... but swinging a sword with two hands... clearly too much effort. plus stat points meant crap... so you really couldn't do anything out of the ordinary with your characters... sigh
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2008 23:47:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2008 17:58:37 GMT
great vids kortoso. thanks
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