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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 15:49:44 GMT
I just got my Gen2 Black Prince(version 2, of course) a few weeks ago after some serious waiting for the new batch, and I absolutely love it. However, quite unfortunately, and to my own error as far as I know, I managed to bend the tip of it while doing some impromptu thrusting practice a few days ago. It was only the first centimeter or so, and I managed to bend it back with some pliers, and after some work with the sharpening stone got it back into working order, thought pretty scratched up from the un-bending and sharpening. Right now it looks like it's fine, but I'm wondering if I should be worried at all, if I managed to damage it more than I first thought, or god forbid, something is up with the steel, though I doubt it's that. I've done some more thrusting with it, and it seems fine, but if anyone has an insight, I would gladly appreciate it.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 16:09:08 GMT
What are you trusting your sword against?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 17:24:49 GMT
I bent it on an old 5 subject notebook, but I have a feeling it was my angle. I was trying to see the penetrative power, and gave it a bit of a second push after my initial thrust, which I have a feeling did it. After I fixed it (at least hypothetically) I did a few against some wood and an old interior door, and it seems to have held up to that.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 24, 2007 22:05:54 GMT
The last 10mm sounds unusual. You could always cut it off and reshape the tip. This type of steel is happy to be bent back and forth a couple of times and not snap, though obviously it will be more prone to doing it again now. It will still be strong. How many degrees off straight did it go?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 5:05:01 GMT
As I remember, it was pretty far, near to 90 degrees, though this is all in retrospect. At the time I was rather distraught, and I don't think it was as bad, however, as I thought then. I went back and examined the tip, and it looked as if perhaps it was only even the first millimeter that was bent. since then I've done some testing against the bottoms of soup cans and some plywood, and everything seems good.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 8:10:18 GMT
I believe thrusting swords today are lacking in proper thickness of the tip. I believe that as a trusting sword tapers to a point, the cross-section should actually thicken. I once had a discussion with John Clements who confirmed this from his examination of some museum thrusting swords.
The problem with adding proper thickness to the tip of a thrusting sword is that you won't be able to impress people with bottle cutting. The cross-section will be too thick near the tip for a good clean tipcut. Cutting should be a secondary concern on a thrusting sword. You will still have a good cutting edge about 12 inches back from the tip. You can cut and slice with that. The thick tip will be better suited to serious thrusting and using the sword as a giant lever to break apart armor.
A sword that tries to be both a cutting sword and a thrusting sword will not do either well.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 31, 2007 11:12:39 GMT
Tsafa, I have seen that principal in action recently. I'm used to cutting bottles with my Gen2 12th century and viking. So when I started cutting with my newer Hanwei hand and a half I tend to try to cut with twoard the tip. Doesn't do so well but when I step into my target and use the middle part of the blade it cuts pretty well. The tip on the Hanwei does seem thick enough for good thrusting to me tho it's my first thrusting type sword so I got no comparison.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 13:46:10 GMT
I strongly disagree, and I point to just about anything past type XIV on the oakeshott scale. Try cutting with a real type XVa. Even though that taaper to a seriously fine point, they are some vicious cutters. Your above statement applies generally to lower end swords, not historical antiques/recreations.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 31, 2007 16:54:39 GMT
Don't be afraid to reshape the tip to suit your needs. The COP or sweet spot for cutting is generally around 60 - 65% the distance from the cross to the tip, so that is the part to cut with, and the profile there will determine the cutting effectiveness, after that it can come to a dramatic/effective thrusting tip, which will reduce the weight past the COP and hence the torsion on the blade in a cut. So a dramatic profile taper should compensate for less distal taper (thicker / stronger tip). What im saying is for a cut and thrust it should be right to keep a thick point coz its narrower, so it should still have a nice light end. So I'm saying it was a mistake for G2 to try and give these swords more distal taper, being that it is a thruster. They don't need it coz they're narrow. Did that make sense?
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 31, 2007 17:13:57 GMT
The tip on the Hanwei does seem thick enough for good thrusting to me tho it's my first thrusting type sword so I got no comparison. The Hanwei is an example of a fine cutter and excellent thruster. Cutting:(bottles re-placed to show path of sword.) (These bottles still full: didn't fly) Thrusting:Real Steel test. No stunt drums were used. Many will know that I made this Albrecht out of the Practical hand and a half, after about 6 hours filing, grinding etc. to give it the right blade for the job.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 19:01:01 GMT
Brenno, has a point. Historically all swords would have been made to order. You would have told your the craftsman exactly what you wanted in a sword. Cutting vs thrusting, length, weight, grip...etc.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Dec 31, 2007 20:44:06 GMT
since we're talkin about cut and thrust swords i wanted your guys' opinion on an idea ive been thinking about. My hanwei bastard's blade tapers down to about 7/8ths of an inch before ending in a semi-spatulate point...ive been thinking of shaping it into a more acute point for better penetration. the tip still has quite a bit of meat in the thickness so i think it woud stand up well to thrusting. Opinions?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 21:50:34 GMT
My thoughts would be to just buy another sword with a sharper point. Why not have two different ones. There are draw backs to a highly tapered point too. The cut does not bit as much. Eventually will will want something different too, you will not be able to just keep modifying one sword.
That is why I only buy sub $300 swords. My preference changes from day to day. I just keep buying more.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 22:02:00 GMT
Why bother? A spear could thrust better than any sword. Who needs swords at all then if you remove cutting from the equation?
That's untrue.
Craig Johnson did a piece at the 2007 wma event dispelling that myth. It turns out that most swords were just the opposite - manufactured at large forges and dished out like cheap toys from china. If you'd like I could ask him via myarmoury.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Dec 31, 2007 22:03:28 GMT
true,true...i have been fancying DSA gothic and the albion regent...but the tip on this somehow looks out of place. i do however like your solution better...just buy another sword..now why didnt i think of that. ;D
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Dec 31, 2007 22:06:06 GMT
i do nave a long bladed spear. i think its a windlass...7 feet long with a removable pointed butt-cap..you can unscrew it and attach another 7 foot length....doesnt sem very sturdy with that extra length though
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 22:12:12 GMT
The fact is this: If your black prince (a type XVa, which thrust VERY well and cut pretty darn good from the test I've seen) can't thrust, than it's lost it's function.
There are plenty of good swords that can do both and are of similar build as the black prince. Oh wait....! What about the sword of the black prince! A&A makes an outstanding replica of the sword, you might want to try that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 22:12:44 GMT
Why bother? A spear could thrust better than any sword. Who needs swords at all then if you remove cutting from the equation? That's untrue. Craig Johnson did a piece at the 2007 wma event dispelling that myth. It turns out that most swords were just the opposite - manufactured at large forges and dished out like cheap toys from china. If you'd like I could ask him via myarmoury. That for the general fighting men who were bound to fight for the Nobles. Governor or Baron, etc. Depending on where you live, but it was whoever ruled their providence, they would have swords mass produced for the men whom would be drafted to fight which was all men who lived under their rule. But, to those who could afford (Nobles, Barons, Governor, Lords, Knights. etc) their sword would have been made to their specs. Most of these are the ones that are still in existence, not the mass produced ones.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 22:14:01 GMT
The fact is this: If your black prince (a type XVa, which thrust VERY well and cut pretty darn good from the test I've seen) can't thrust, than it's lost it's function. There are plenty of good swords that can do both and are of similar build as the black prince. Oh wait....! What about the sword of the black prince! A&A makes an outstanding replica of the sword, you might want to try that. Sound like his sword is doing well.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 22:48:40 GMT
Why bother? A spear could thrust better than any sword. Who needs swords at all then if you remove cutting from the equation? That's untrue. Craig Johnson did a piece at the 2007 wma event dispelling that myth. It turns out that most swords were just the opposite - manufactured at large forges and dished out like cheap toys from china. If you'd like I could ask him via myarmoury. That for the general fighting men who were bound to fight for the Nobles. Governor or Baron, etc. Depending on where you live, but it was whoever ruled their providence, they would have swords mass produced for the men whom would be drafted to fight which was all men who lived under their rule. But, to those who could afford (Nobles, Barons, Governor, Lords, Knights. etc) their sword would have been made to their specs. Most of these are the ones that are still in existence, not the mass produced ones. Agreed, but we can't forget that these nobles were only a small minority. Places like Toledo, Koln, Solingen, and others specialized in sword making both generic AND custom orders. My suspicion is that the sword din't fail so much as the thrust itself. If wrengtched after the thrust, then I can see many a good sword fail. If it WAS a good thrust, then it probably was another dud. I'm not trying to slight gen2, you all know I've got full respect for your work, but I can't rule out the possibility that you've still not got the black prince right. And that's nothing to be ashamed of, it's a very hard blade type to do correctly. But this is all speculation upon speculation, the sword is very likely not to be the culperate at all.
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