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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2007 23:06:27 GMT
Find out about the flex requirements of the group you plan to train with. A lot require a blade with flex for thrusting. Some groups insist on realistic stiff points. The two groups usually hate each other. This kind of babyshit is a big deal to them. You don't want to buy something you can't use.
I actually agree with Ram on the sword weight issue. Weight training is best for making you stronger. When sword training I think it is best to train with the weapon you plan to fight with and get use to it. Going from a heavy sword to a light one requires many adjustments. You will overpower a lot of techniques because you are use to initializing you motion with more power. You will also underpower other techniques where you are use to gravity and the swords weight doing the work for you. Accuracy is very important in swordmanship. Not just in hitting your opponent in an undefended area but also in catching his weak with your strong. Different swords handle differently. Swords of different lengths also handle differently.
Currently I am training with a 4 lb Meyer Longsword. Its nearly 54 inches long. It has some benefits and drawbacks and I am learning to deal with them. This is the sword I will fight with.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 22, 2007 23:18:55 GMT
In which case I respectuflly challenge your technique with a sword, if you train with heavier swords than you wish to use. I.E a 6 lb sword when you'e really only going to be using a three lb one.
^^ not meant to be entirely ofensive. Too many people say their good and really have no clue what they're talking about.
(Note that I said nothing about training with weights, just with a heavier sword)
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Post by Brian of DBK on Dec 22, 2007 23:43:17 GMT
Hmmm, well I can only speak from my own experience, and I don't want to profess and say what is right or wrong. But I've used a number of exercises to strengthen and increase my abilities with a sword. The heaviest swords I have are Darkswords, and I can tell you from my own experience that using them has built up not only my strength, but my endurance, and my abilities including accuracy and finesse. Maybe it's just natural athletic ability, but most sports are like that, and I include swordsmanship training to fall under a number of athletic inspired training exercises. Swinging a baseball bat is actually a fine example! It requires great accuracy, and going from a heavier to a lighter bat actually helps a lot, and doesn't change the fact you still need to keep your eye on the target.
Edit: I might add that I don't think anyone here can say what is right or wrong regarding what works best on a individual basis. My abilities have dramatically increased due to weights, and using heavier swords to increase ability. Without question, my accuracy has only gotten better as well.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 22, 2007 23:49:43 GMT
What you are doing may help those certain aspects, but you're not fighting against a person. What you are doing is hitting a target that cannot fight back and therefore you recieve no feedback as to whether or not you are developing bad habits - one of the reasons why I've pretty much stopped cutting bottles. It may develop accuracy. It may develop power. But it is undoubtedly deleterious to your overall performance in battle where one needs to be used to the sword they have and not one heavier or else they find themselves, as tsafa said, overpowering their targets. And what if you miss? It's rather difficult to miss a stationary target once you've got decent experience with bottle cutting, but that target will not move out of your way if you swing. So if you put a certain amount of power into a heavy sword, then put that same amount of power into a lighter sword, you'll still succeed if you are cutting stionary targets, but what if you target, god forbid, moves away from your sword? What happens then when you throw yourself off balance after putting too much power into your strike and not realizing that your lighter swords recovery strength needs to be taken into account when training.
edit: Glad you didn't take that the wrong way, it wasn't meant to be combative.
edit to respond to your edit: I agree.
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Post by Brian of DBK on Dec 22, 2007 23:56:14 GMT
Training with a heavier sword allows you to have the strength to stop a follow through with a lighter sword. Not only that, it gives you the ability to adjust your swing. Believe it or not, but you do the same thing with a baseball bat, if properly trained. A 90 mph pitch dives out of the strike zone, you need to stop your swing. If you're not strong enough you swing and miss. Same thing with battling with a sword. You're constantly adjusting, and you need strength and endurance to do just that. You aren't going to increase your dexterity with the sword without increasing your strength. The only way to increase your strength with the various movements you do is by exercising with a weight greater than your muscles are used to.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 1:59:15 GMT
Everybody, I think what Rammstien is trying to say is that technique is more important and should always come first before strength and speed. Strength and speed can come later.
If you try to do your technique fast and powerful before practicing, your technique will be sloppy and that can lead to bad habbits. practicing with quality is better than practicing with quantity. And practice doesn't make perfect...practice makes progress.
That's what my Kunfg Fu master and my baseball coach told me.
And Brian, I play Highschool baseball and the baseball swing takes time to learn. First we learn the basics of the swing on a tee. Then we work on core and leg strengthening while still working on a basbeall tee so that we can get toned while not losing our muscle memory and technique. Then we learn advanced techniques to help us pick a target where we want to hit the ball on certian pitches and adjust to hit certian pitches that we have trouble adapting to.
Using strength in a baseball swing is to hit the ball harder, to keep the body aligned rather than getting your upperbody pulled with the bat like some weak baseball players, and to have good balance . If you dont learn our foot work in a swing, you're most likely to loose balance, therefore, losing all of your power and momentum through a swing.
TECHNIQUE FIRST, THEN STRENGTH AND SPEED CAN BE APPLIED LATER.
Baseball offense is the hardest thing to be good at especially in the higher levels like college and the major leagues which is why some people take steroids to help them perform up on that level.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 20:35:39 GMT
I had to stop myself short on this one. Even though I believe in training in the gym for strength and with you weapon of choice for technique, due to a low ceiling in my basement I currently have no choice but to do my pell drills with an axe. It has 2 lb head, not standard 3.5 lb. I use my longsword blunt for my WMA practice and I don't have much problem making the adjustment. The axe does not make me stronger though because I am already in shape from my gym training, it just gets tiring.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 21:53:00 GMT
I know from experience that a body builder can't just pick up a sword and swing it. He must first learn how.
There is a balance to everything, so I definitely agree that swinging a sword with proper technique comes first. You also develop muscle memory and strength through practice. Historically Squires used to train with heavier swords to develop strength (long before weights were used). So for those weak guys that have never touched a weight, strength will come quickly with daily practice provided they apply the proper technique.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 22:40:00 GMT
also endurance is more important than strength.
I would rather fight with fit men that have very good stamina and fighting finess rather than fight with men that are super strong but can't last at all
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Post by rammstein on Dec 23, 2007 22:54:46 GMT
Trueswordsman, please site the squires training with heavier swords part. I find it tremendously hard to believe.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 4:00:34 GMT
Trueswordsman, please site the squires training with heavier swords part. I find it tremendously hard to believe. Roman authors (Vegetius I think) have staded that roman soldiers did train with heavier swords so it has some historical backing... Ancalagon
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2007 4:59:15 GMT
Ok, I just spent about an hour looking through my rather large collection of books and was not able to find the book. I remember reading it and next to the text was a historical engraving with a sword above his head practicing against a pell (looked like a tree with the branches cut off).
I'll eventually find it, but I did read it somewhere.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 24, 2007 5:35:59 GMT
Trueswordsman, please site the squires training with heavier swords part. I find it tremendously hard to believe. Roman authors (Vegetius I think) have staded that roman soldiers did train with heavier swords so it has some historical backing... Ancalagon quote "We are informed by the writings of the ancients that, among their other exercises, they had that of the post. They gave their recruits round bucklers woven with willows, twice as heavy as those used on real service, and wooden swords double the weight of the common ones. They exercised them with these at the post both morning and afternoon." From; www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/vegetius/
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Post by rammstein on Dec 24, 2007 15:36:21 GMT
NOly after they've learned proper technique, I'm sure.
Don't forget, the gladius was mainly a thrusting weapon which works on entirely different mechanics than cutting weapons. I still hold firm to the fact that practicing with cutting weapons far too heavy will NOT help. It may give power, but with power comes expectation of the certain sword you are using, not the sword you WILL be using.
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Post by Brian of DBK on Dec 24, 2007 15:55:42 GMT
What doesn't work for one, may work for another...
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