|
Post by DavidW on Dec 1, 2012 22:53:16 GMT
So yeah, I'm a senior and will be graduating in June, but I want to get into shooting and hunting (you can go to gun ranges on weekends, but as a college student, there usually isn't a place for you to cut up water bottles with a sword). Unfortunately, all guns are heck expensive in Switzerland, and I'm leaving in a few months anyway so it wouldn't be worth it to start here. I was thinking of maybe buying a rifle once I get to University, and keeping it in a storage unit so if I'm free on weekends I can just drive to the storage unit and go to a shooting range. Does this sound viable?
Also, where would I go hunting if I go to University, since most are located in urban areas? I don't anything about hunting...where do people hunt in the first place? Is it just for people who happen to live in the boonies and own a big piece of land? (Sorry if I sound really stupid, I seriously don't know :oops: )
Any general advice for a newbie who wants to enter the shooting world? My experience so far has been .22 rifles, .45 revolver, 9mm semiauto handguns, Mosin Nagant, and a 12 gauge shotgun (skeet shooting). They were a one-time deal, when I was invited to go shooting with a friend and his dad.
|
|
|
Post by Onimusha on Dec 1, 2012 23:35:56 GMT
I gather that you'll be coming to the united states. If that's the case, you have several options. You can talk to local land owners about hunting on their property. Farmers would be a good start. Game animals cause crop damage. You could find a hunting club to join. You pay annual club dues and hunt the club property. You may be close to a private hunting preserve. You pay a fee per hunt. They'll usually provide a guide and, if you need it, a gun. Mosin nagants go for about $100 here. There's plenty of ammunition, and it will do for anything short of grizzly bear. Mausers can be had cheaply as well. I don't know if a noncitizen can buy a gun. Bow hunting is a popular option. Oh, you could also go on a WMA (wildlife management area) . At least that's how it works here in the state of Georgia.
|
|
Sam H
Member
Posts: 1,099
|
Post by Sam H on Dec 1, 2012 23:38:29 GMT
With you being in Switzerland (and I know nothing about laws in Switzerland) I have no worthwhile advice to give on this subject there.
If you were in the USA I'd suggest getting a membership at a local sportsman's club and using the range there to shoot. As for hunting most sportsmen's clubs have land you can hunt on if you're a member. Start with that and also consider public land... state owned or federally owned land is a good resource for hunting.
|
|
|
Post by Onimusha on Dec 1, 2012 23:50:49 GMT
If I knew where you were going to university, I could give you better advice. State laws vary a bit.
|
|
Taran
Member
Posts: 2,621
|
Post by Taran on Dec 2, 2012 7:07:33 GMT
If you know what you're doing with self-loading, or hook up with someone who does, 7.62x54 is relatively easy to set up for anything from squirrel to grizzly.
Long-gun (a rifle), yes, in most states. Not an assault rifle or pistol with additional licensing issues. Shotguns and rifles are easy to get for most any resident.
For a newbie, the best thing to do would be to hook up with a sportsmen's club. USA or Europe (they do have them over there). You'll save a lot of hassle, confusion, and potential legal trouble. It'll cost more than doing it yourself, probably, but involves a lot less risk.
|
|
|
Post by DavidW on Dec 2, 2012 10:52:30 GMT
Just to clarify, I'm a US citizen, it's just that I've been living in Switzerland for the past two years cause of my dad's job. I'd probably just hunt small game and deer, planning to buy this rifle: www.impactguns.com/sig-556r-russ ... 27888.aspx (as stated in previous threads, I'm a tacticool fan :roll: ) I plan to go to Uni on the east coast. I've applied to Duke, UNC Chapel Hill, Boston University, Johns Hopkins, USC (South Carolina), Clemson, and Cornell. I'm not sure which I'll go to if accepted, but I'm thinking I'll probably end up in NC, or possibly SC, depending on which school gives me more money :lol: By the looks of it, I need to use soft point ammunition with around 123/125 grain? I took a look and found some public hunting grounds near Durham and Chapel Hill. Public grounds are free, right? I'll also take a look into shooting clubs near my universities. Thanks for all the help guys!
|
|
|
Post by Onimusha on Dec 2, 2012 18:57:56 GMT
Taran, "assault rifle " is a broad term, and I don't know of any state that requires a license to own any type of firearm. Full autos require a tax stamp. If you know of any license requirements like that, please let me know so that I can call my NRA Rep. David, proper bullet weight depends on the caliber you choose. Let me know what you're looking at. Shot placement is the most important thing. Even if you use a .50 Cal, you still have to hit vitals for a clean kill.
|
|
slav
Senior Forumite
Posts: 818
|
Post by slav on Dec 3, 2012 6:11:29 GMT
One of the very best and underestimated training tools in which you could invest is a good quality .177 caliber air rifle. I have been shooting full-size guns my entire life, and have always found time to put a lot (tens of thousands) of rounds through my air rifle(s). My go-to air rifle for practice is the CZ Slavia631. Very well made for the price, accurate, and has a very good adjustable trigger (unlike Gamo and other more commonly seen models in the price range).
If you live somewhere with a large enough basement or garage, it is pretty easy to set up a 10-yard indoor range in which to train and shoot groups. If you have a yard, longer ranges are possible (as long as it is legal and safe). If there is somewhere outdoors where you can stretch out to 50 or even 100 yards...you can work on a whole new skill set.
The shooting fundamentals and dynamics are the same as full size precision shooting, however ranges can be scaled down, and you don't have to worry about noise or recoil. The slower projectile means that any errors or bad habits are exaggerated, and thus can be identified and addressed correctly (which can be very valuable when switching back to your full-size rifle). Also the lighter, slower projectile is more sensitive to wind and gravity, which can teach you a lot about long range shooting, on a micro scale.
I have also recently invested in a CO2-powered semi-automatic BB pistol. Another good tool for practicing "tacticool" (as you call it) drills in enclosed indoor spaces, on the cheap.
Regardless of what kind of shooting you do, it's ALL about correct fundamentals and then trigger time. As you can see, the latter can be achieved in more ways than you think, even when you don't have the luxury of shooting "real" guns as often as you'd like.
|
|
Taran
Member
Posts: 2,621
|
Post by Taran on Dec 3, 2012 7:13:52 GMT
Yeah. My error. Full auto is what I meant. Not a matter of a license, though. I'm not sure about Federal, but some states require a background check for full auto just like with handguns, and I believe passing that requires at least a permanent residency green card.
|
|
|
Post by Onimusha on Dec 4, 2012 5:31:00 GMT
David, the .223/5.56 is perfectly capable of taking deer with proper bullet selection and shot placement. You may have to get a 5 round magazine, as some states have capacity restrictions for hunting. The hog hunters here use ar-15s with 62 grain bullets to take down 400lb boar. They go in like a pencil and come out like a grapefruit.
|
|
Sam H
Member
Posts: 1,099
|
Post by Sam H on Dec 6, 2012 3:22:04 GMT
First of all - there are some states that DO regulate "assault rifles." These states are those like (The People's Republic of) Kalifornia, Massachusetts, Connecticut and others. In such states rifles that fall under their definition of "assault weapons" need to either have been made prior to their relative bans going into place OR have to be altered to be considered legal in those states.
For automatic weapons a class 3 tax stamp is necessary per gun and that is issued by the BATF and as such is a federally regulated law. The same applies for SBR, SBS and sound suppressors.
Now David...
Since you're looking at going to school in the states I'd suggest looking into the state, county and local hunting regulations within your AO. Basically find out what's legal to shoot and when its legal to shoot it. Deer are regulated by season and tag limits. Same goes for small game such as squirrels and rabbits. Same can be said for game birds. Some animals are considered varmints/vermin by many states and as such are subject to open season all year round. These animals can be but are not limited to raccoon, opossum and coyote. Once again its a good idea to read up on the hunting regulations within your AO. I also suggest calling your state's DOW or DNR and asking questions regarding legality. Some states allow .22 caliber centerfire ammunition for use on medium to large game. Some don't. Since you'll be living there it'll behoove you to do the legwork yourself and familiarize yourself with said laws. Ignorance is no defense in a court of law so know as much as you can before hitting the fields.
Now about the gun you're looking at getting... Sig makes a great AR style rifle but I STRONGLY suggest getting the Sig 556 in 5.56 NATO. Don't get it in 7.62x39. While the 7.62x39 carries greater kinetic energy down range its not an ideal round for the AR platform and economically .223/5.56 is now less expensive than 7.62x39. While cost of ammo may not be a concern for you right now it may become so later on when you're on your own and not being supported by mom and dad. If you really want the 7.62x39 later you can save up and purchase the upper receiver for it at a later date.
As for taking deer a 7.62x39 will take game just as well as say a 30-30. Of course a .223 will take deer just fine too. Just make sure its legal to take deer with a .223 in the state you intend to hunt in. If .223 isn't legal for deer in the state you're in then I suggest looking at 6.8 SPC or even .30RAR. These rounds were designed specifically for the AR platform and have been proven to function flawlessly in said rifles. I'm personally a pretty big fan of the .30RAR. Its a lot like the 7.62x39 but since its designed specifically for the AR platform it performs better in that platform than the 7.62x39 (just personal experience so take it as however you wish).
Oh and about a .223 going in like a pencil and coming out like a grapefruit... that's physically impossible. The .223 however will enter and if its a bonded soft point it will mushroom, tumble and yaw. This creates massive internal injuries and causes incapacitation and death quickly. I've shot several deer with 68gr spbt and every one of them have DRT. All but one were neck shots. The one was a lucky head shot as it was running and I lead a bit too far and a bit too high... thus hitting its head. I haven't seen though any of those deer have an exit would considerably larger than the initial entry wound.
What its really about though is proper shot placement. Shoot a deer in the rump with a .308 and you might as well have shot it in the rear with a .223. Either way its not going to die quickly and its likely you'll lose the deer. Gut shoot a deer with a .22LR and it'll die slowly and painfully - a long ways away from where you shot it. Gut shoot a deer with a .30-06 and the result will be pretty much the same except you're also going to have fecal matter all over your meat. A good shot with a .223, 30-30, .308 etc. is going to put the deer down quickly. A bad shot with any caliber (aside from .50BMG or .600Nitro or other outrageous cartridges) is still a bad shot.
Good luck hunting. Make sure to do the research necessary before you go out though to avoid legal troubles. Oh and I forgot - try to get in touch with the local wardens and ask them how they interpret the law since they're the ones who will be writing out tickets or putting the cuffs on you...
|
|
|
Post by Onimusha on Dec 6, 2012 6:57:59 GMT
When I said that the round came out like a grapefruit, I didn't mean that the bullet expanded to that size. Anyone with one eye and half a brain can tell that such a thing is impossible. I meant that it takes out a chunk of meat that size on the way out. Anyway that's good advice. Game laws can sometimes vary in different areas of the same count.
|
|
|
Post by DavidW on Dec 6, 2012 16:12:05 GMT
Thanks for all the advice Sam. I thought .223 was too small a round (I always heard of people hunting deer with .308 sized rounds), but I guess that isn't the case always. Do they have hunting courses somewhere? Like where to aim for on animals and hunting tactics (stealth, bait, etc.)? Because I only know how to handle and shoot firearms, I know little to nothing on hunting. So what makes an AR platform so bad with 7.62 as opposed to an AK platform? Is it less accurate or reliable, and why? From the reviews I've seen, the 556r seems to be good, the newer version at least. Money isn't that much of an issue; my summer job paid pretty well, so anything up to $1500 is fine with me since I want to save a few hundred $$ to buy ammo/accessories. I chose 7.62 for it's greater energy and because it's more available and cheaper than the other calibers you listed (aside from 5.56/.223). I also chose that SIG since it includes a mini red dot sight. I've seen some other regular sized ones in an issue of Recoil (magazine) I have, and they cost a bunch, not to mention you have to shell out a fair bit for the mount as well. The included red dot sight will probably be pretty cheap quality and basic, but as long as it does the job, it's okay with me. Alternatively, I could buy a rifle without a red dot sight and fit it with a cheap RDS plus some flip-up iron sights for backup, but that'd cost a fair bit more I think. For 5.56 I was thinking of this www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... Remington5 It's apparently the closest looking thing to a legit Swiss Arms Stgw. 90. I'm not too sure about the SIG 556, as the reviews vary from some people complaining about malfunctions/loose stock due to bad QC while others say it's the best 5.56 they've ever shot (seriously mixed reviews). Furthermore, I don't know which of the 556 series I should get anyway: The classic or the patrol rifle? Apparently SIG's customer service is pretty bad, so if you get a lemon you're gonna have a bad time. The 551A1 appears to be rather promising in terms of quality. Heck, I might just buy both.
|
|
|
Post by Onimusha on Dec 6, 2012 19:41:24 GMT
David, there isn't really any good ammunition for 7.62x39 in the U.S. That's why the round isn't considered very accurate. As far as the proper aiming spot goes, it depends on what you're hunting. Look at the animal's anatomy and see where the vitals are.
|
|
Sam H
Member
Posts: 1,099
|
Post by Sam H on Dec 6, 2012 23:41:19 GMT
The .223 is not too small a round to hunt deer with. Many people will tell you its too small but really its all about choosing the right bullet (for hunting I prefer at least a 68gr bonded soft point bullet for penetration and mass retention) and proper shot placement. As for hunting courses - there are plenty of people around that would be happy to teach a new hunter. First I strongly suggest taking a hunter's safety course - many states (like the one I live in) require new hunters to be a hunter's safety graduate before they can purchase a hunting license. While you're taking the course (usually either free or costs only around $10) you can ask your instructors if they know of anyone who would be willing to teach you how to hunt. Most sportsmen are more than happy to introduce newbies to their passion.
The 7.62x39 round is a fine round - with ballistics comparable to the venerable 30-30. The thing about the 7.62x39 however is that the cartridge wasn't designed to work with an AR style feeding system and as such can be a bit rough on the AR lower receiver. If you're looking for effectiveness against 2 legged targets the 5.56NATO and 7.62x39 are both very effective. The only difference is when you're shooting at targets behind hard cover (such as brick walls). In that case you are more likely to penetrate the cover and still carry enough kinetic energy to do grievous bodily injury. Personally I figure if I'm engaged in activities like that it means that the SHTF and the Chinese (Koreans if you're thinking of the new incarnation of Red Dawn) have invaded. Were that the case I'd want to use what the majority of other Americans (and our military) are using - 5.56NATO.
Cost wise it is true that the 7.62x39 is less expensive than say the 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel or .30 RAR but remember that we're talking about hunting and not plinking or going on an extended combat mission. If you're talking about either of the latter I'd prefer the 5.56NATO over 7.62x39 because its lighter (meaning I can carry more ammo) and more readily available in most parts of the world since its a standard NATO round. Since we're talking about hunting however, unless you're out in the woods just lobbing ammo at everything you see, you won't be going through enough ammo for the cost difference to really make a mark on your wallet. Aside from that, as Onimusha said, there isn't much in the way of good hunting ammunition for 7.62x39 unless you load your own.
The Sig 556 is an excellent rifle. However I would suggest the Sig 516. They are highly regarded as one of the best AR style rifles under $2000. Not only that but they do pack a lot of value into their sales price - including but not limited to optics and slings.
The Sig 551a1 is a fine rifle too however you'll find that it is not as versatile a rifle as the Sig 516. One of the beautiful things about the AR platform that converted me from a steadfast AK lover to an AR aficionado is was the fact that with the push of two retainer pins you could pop the upper receiver off and put another upper on in a different caliber. You can keep optics mounted on the upper and retain zero regardless of how many changes you make. You cannot do that with the Sig 551a1.
An example is my AR rifles. I've got a couple of ARs now (had one, bought a few more, built one, sold some and now I'm down to two) and at this point I've got uppers in the following calibers: .22lr, .223/5.56, 6.8SPC, .30RAR and .450 Bushmaster. I have a 4x32 scope on the .22lr upper, a red dot/reflex on the .223/5.56, a red dot/reflex + 4x magnifier on the 6.8, a 4-16x42 scope on the .30RAR and a 4x42 scope on the .450. Each of them are sighted in at different distances for different purposes. The .22lr is zeroed at 25 yards and is accurate out to 75 yards. That's used for recreational plinking and small game hunting such as squirrels and rabbits. Its also my varmint set up. The .223/5.56 is zeroed at 50 yards. Its for plinking, practice, close range hunting of medium size game (deer, hog etc.) and if necessary defense. The 6.8 is meant for hunting of deer, hog, coyote etc. out to 200 yards and also if necessary defense. The .30RAR is specifically meant for hunting deer and hog out to 400 yards. The .450 Bushmaster is meant to hunt basically anything I care to shoot depending on range but I'd prefer to keep it within 200 yards and also to take down critters that I can't take down with any of the other calibers I have.
When it comes to the AR platform you can have 1 lower receiver and mount a multitude of different set-ups for different calibers ranging from .22lr to .9mm and .45acp to .50 Beowulf. There is even a manufacturer out there that makes a side feeding .50BMG upper for the AR platform... oh and yes you can even get an upper for the AR to turn it into a crossbow. :roll:
Basically what I'm saying is that for a first centerfire rifle I'd go with the Sig 556 or other comparable AR platform. Then later on if you REALLY had to have the 551a1 get that but the AR platform will serve you far better than most any other platform you decide to go with.
EDITED FOR ACCURACY
|
|
slav
Senior Forumite
Posts: 818
|
Post by slav on Dec 7, 2012 18:33:28 GMT
Pretty sure the Sig 556 is not an AR platform rifle. I have always understood the design to be much more similar to the AK. In fact, I've heard it referred to as the "most glamorous evolution of the AK ever made".
Sig's AR platform guns are fairly new (2010?), and they are the 516 and 416.
|
|
Sam H
Member
Posts: 1,099
|
Post by Sam H on Dec 7, 2012 20:58:14 GMT
You are correct. For some reason my brain has been as reliable as the host for this forum lately about some things.
The whole time I was talking about the Sig 556 I was actually thinking about the 516.
I'm going to change my posts appropriately.
|
|
|
Post by DavidW on Dec 8, 2012 13:37:29 GMT
I'm really interested in the Sig Swiss style rifle. Looking to have something that stands out a bit, like the 551 or 556 series. So with the crappy 7.62 rounds found in america, are they less accurate, corrode the firearm internal parts, or what? I've also seen some threads mentioning steel cased bullets vs. brass cased ones. Is it that big of a deal?
And I plan to do a fair bit of range plinking as well. As a university student I probably won't have the time to go hunting often (I'd probably go once or twice a month), so I'd spend more time at the range since I can go shooting there with little preparation and spend less time (just grab the gun from the storage unit and head to the range to shoot) than hunting. Hence, I'd like to have a firearm chambered in a cartridge that I can pick up at any gun store for cheap.
And you corrected your post, saying that the 556 is not an AR platform? So it's more of an AK platform if I understand slav's post correctly. In that case, the 7.62 would feed okay into the 556r, wouldn't it?
|
|
slav
Senior Forumite
Posts: 818
|
Post by slav on Dec 8, 2012 15:49:39 GMT
Depends on what it is chambered for. I wouldn't imagine Sig to come out with a rifle that has inherent feed issues between calibers.
|
|
Sam H
Member
Posts: 1,099
|
Post by Sam H on Dec 8, 2012 22:03:17 GMT
The Sig 556 is actually NOT an AK or AK variant at all.
The Sig 556 is the evolution of the SG 550, a rifle that was originally designed and manufactured for the Swiss military by Swiss Arms. This rifle (the SG 550) was originally chambered in the 5.6x45 - the Swiss equivalent of the 5.56NATO. However this didn't go well with the whole idea of NATO members using the same cartridge for ease of ammunition logistics so the SG 550 was altered to be chambered in 5.56NATO.
The SG 551 is basically a carbine version of the SG 550 (with a few minor changes).
The SG 556 is Sig's newest version of the rifle with better refinements and ergonomics.
The SG 550 and subsequent variations were actually based off another design - a design that Kalashnikov referenced heavily when designing the venerable AK. That was the German (Nazi) STG or Sturmgewehr. The gas system more closely resembles that of H&K's system than that of the AK. The sights are also reminiscent of the HK MP series of rifles. The receivers also more closely resemble that of the HK 91 or HK G3. The real difference is the cocking handles - the SG rifles have a right hand cocking handle right on the upper receiver while the HK rifles have a cocking handle on the left side of the gun and further up the barrel on the forearm.
The sad thing is I knew this... and my brain was just being well.. my brain. In any case pretty much the same goes for this rifle as in the AR - the rifle, chamber and magazines were designed for a straight walled case rather than a slant walled case (5.56 is straight, 7.62x39 is slanted). Of course you could modify the designs but the original design was never meant for that and as such subsequent modifications have proven to be less effective than the original design intentions.
That leads me to 7.62x39 ammo and its availability within the US. There are domestic manufacturers of quality 7.62x39 hunting ammo in this country. This ammo though is very expensive - more expensive than the other calibers I've mentioned. Ammo that is available as military surplus or as first run hunting ammo from other countries such as Russia, Bulgaria etc. is available at a lower price but for plinking purposes the .223/5.56 is far less expensive at this point in time and with the supply of surplus 7.62x39 getting smaller on a continual basis the cost difference between 7.62x39 and 5.56NATO is only expected to grow with the 7.62 round becoming much more expensive than 5.56. The other thing that should be considered is that MOST ammunition that is from Europe in 7.62x39 is steel cased (which some guns don't like) and are Berdan primed (which can be mildly corrosive although they claim its not).
Basically what I'm saying is that there's better and cheaper ammo to be found in other calibers for hunting than 7.62x39 unless you want to sacrifice quality and performance as well as price. The 7.62x39 was a great round for its time but even the Russians left it behind when they made the redesign of the AK to use the 5.45x39 round in 1974. It can be a good hunting cartridge if you purchase the domestically made (and better quality) ammunition at a premium price OR hand load your own. Aside from that you're better off with a less expensive caliber that is more readily found.
|
|