Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 27, 2012 23:03:02 GMT
Before I go off and do test cutting... I would like to know if this is a danger or anything. I ask, because it looks like a "hamon" line... but it's across the blade instead of along it... and if an entire section of the blade is going to be way harder and not soft enough to handle shock and whatnot... I don't want to end up like that guy on the home shopping television network that ended up getting cut by a broken katana. I've uploaded unedited full size/resolution pictures so as much detail can be made out if needed to inspect the "phenomenon." The sword is a Hua Wei 9260 Through Hardened model if the material and manufacturer information helps diagnose the mystery thingy.
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Post by Dr. Whom on Sept 28, 2012 12:28:41 GMT
Hmm...If it is through hardened it should not have a hamon...maybe it is a ghost hamon and just a cosmetic effect.
Hope someone can tell as I would not want anyone to get hurt by a shattered katana
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 28, 2012 13:17:11 GMT
Yeah, I hope it's something that's just cosmetic. Hua Wei doesn't have a return policy. I also want to finish the review of the sword. I'm at the test cutting phase, but I don't want it to break and poke me in the eye or anything.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Sept 28, 2012 16:57:39 GMT
Contact Hua Wei and work with them.
In a similar issue, I bought a bow that came with a knot near the center. I contacted the maker and asked about it, informing them that I wasn't really comfortable with it there. They told me to let them know if it breaks, and they'd be happy to replace it.
So if you contact this company and let them know that you are hesitant to use this blade, and state your concerns, they might swap it out for another.
I bought an ATrim last year that came with a wavy hamon'esque line running along the blade. It was just an odd pattern caused from the final polish, which I think is what is going on here.
You COULD try and doing a high grit polish on it, and see if it goes away. Ideally, you probably aren't to crazy about spending hours of tedious labor, just to see if you can use your blade.
But like Dr. Whom said, if it's through hardened, then you have a lot less to fear then if it was diff hardened.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Sept 28, 2012 18:07:51 GMT
i have a bowie knife that i made that came out of the heat treat that way, the reason was because the base of the blade was at a lower temperature than the rest due to my forge being too small and it created the exact same thing as your blade has. Id deff contact huawei and let them know, if it makes you feel better the bowie has never failed me, but its something to consider.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 28, 2012 18:22:29 GMT
That's what I was thinking, when they quenched or whatever it's called, I figured that part of the blade either wasn't in the water for as long, or at all. I just wasn't completely certain, though, as I'm not a smith nor have I studied much on how swords are made. The big reason why I'm holding off on test cutting is because the line goes all the way across the blade on both sides in the same pattern, as would be if the blade wasn't entirely put into the quenching liquid. I've contacted Jacky from Hua Wei about it, and I guess we'll see what he has to say. Kinda a bummer, though, that an otherwise pretty good sword is going to get dinged major points for not even being tempered properly... Unfortunately, since it was a "customized" order with some features added (higher end saya and fittings), it was sent via PayPal invoice like others have had done with Hua Wei, so I can't let other eBay-ers know that the "100%" feedback rating they have, probably isn't as 100% as they might think.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Sept 29, 2012 0:31:26 GMT
2 things....
I think the line is the result of them not heating the steel hot enough near the tang. So this is why when it was quenched in water or oil it has a line where it should not have a line.
the other thing is....send it back.
While this line is mostly a harmless effect of the quench, there is the matter that the blade is sold as "Thorough Hardened"...and this one is CLEARLY not!
The blade therefore is not as advertised...
So I would send it back regardless of any added scratches you may have added over time.
ITS NOT A DANGEROUS SWORD... You could still use if forever and not notice any issues. But the fact is that you paid money for a type of Heat treatment that this sword lacks.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 29, 2012 3:07:35 GMT
The fact that it's not dangerous is good to know. The fact that it was made wrong isn't. I must just have terrible luck, as everyone has had no issues or problems reported with their Hua Wei orders. Now I'll be the lone negative review, and everyone will think I'm crazy or overly critical or a liar.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Sept 29, 2012 3:57:38 GMT
I dont know much about 9260, but if it is anything like 5160 then its a nice strong steel and even if it's not the best heat-treatment its going to cut and work fine. I doubt you would ever notice any difference given where the line appears on the sword. Most of the blade looks fine, and so if you dont want the trouble of contacting the maker then its no one's business I would say...
But if the lines on the sword are correctly showing that the HT was not as good as it could be, then it would be nice if the maker would take it back, and fix it, or replace it.
Would they do that for free? I dont know.
It sure would be nice if they would.
It may have been just a simple error, like not heating that part of the tang enough and it cooled the blade above it, or not dipping the sword deep enough into the quench tank.
Im not an expert on that steel, but I have done many quenches with 5160 and if you screw up once you can try, try again and get it right. it's not that big of deal to fix it. If you had the right tools you could even do it yourself
As for the idea that some people who love that sword might be offended that you claim a problem with a blade? Well, yes, that is a concern. Sword owners tend to be weird about stuff like this.
The general Rule I try to live by is this: One bad sword that slipped by the quality control should not condemn a whole sword company.
I think a person is right to allow the sword to stand or fall on it's own merit, regardless of the feeling of love or hate people have for the sword maker.
If the sword is not as it was said to be when sold to you then you have a right to raise this issue with the maker and allow them the chance to 'make good'
every sword company is staffed by humans, and all humans make mistakes. But this also gives the sword maker the chance to make good, and fix a problem and thereby actually increase their good reputation no matter the sword's issues.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Sept 29, 2012 6:18:09 GMT
Talk with Jackie, or contact *knowledgable* sword smiths and collectors. Kumo means well, but it is nowhere near as dire as he makes it out to be. As usual.
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Post by Cold Napalm on Sept 29, 2012 7:50:17 GMT
Okay...so your claiming that you have done HT yourself and as such you have some expert knoweldge and yet, you pass on reheating a final ground blade like it was nothing. You have to take the edge off the sword before you can re-heat treat the blade unless you LIKE having fracture cracks all over the blade as the edge WILL get way too hot compared to the spine otherwise and you will fracture the edge on quenching...even 5160 with oil quench. Or do you have some secret method that people like the folks at albion and gus haven't figured out? Because seriously, if you COULD actually heat treat the sword blank with the finished edge or near finished edge and geometry, I'm sure gus would sing praises to you as he wouldn't have to grind so freaking much to make swords and he could clear his backlog in no time.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 29, 2012 8:14:44 GMT
I would hazard a guess that the quench was a bit shy, that being said it is quite likely safe as that area will be "softer" - either way returning it is probably the better option.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 29, 2012 9:11:17 GMT
Hua Wei doesn't accept returns outside of eBay, which is why I think he prefers to do by sending a PayPal invoice if you want any form of customization done (like if you want different fittings or color ito, etc.). If it's safe, and just a cosmetic issue, I'll just keep it and use it for fun or as a loaner katana for friends. I was just worried that the blade on the side of the line away from the tang was fully hardened to something brittle and would break like a stainless steel sword and someone would get injured like the guy on the home shopping network.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 29, 2012 10:59:06 GMT
Stainless can be brittle, when you exceed about 12" or so the flex can exceed the limits of the steel, your sword is made of "real" steel so the problem is more likely for that area to be softer and/or more resilient.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Sept 29, 2012 12:06:01 GMT
Well.....what I tried to say and what you read are two very different things... But lets move on- yes, Like I said > "if you had the tools"...LOL Its actually not all that uncommon for bladesmiths to attempt. More so I would think with a steel like 5160 rather than steels that are ...um. less "forgiving" I have even read about iron-sand created Japanese steel that over the years has received a 2nd HT . What is the well- known system used is that you can use the current outer steel as a protective "jacket" for the future edge during the quench so that you dont lose carbon when heating etc.. Now there is always a chance of a edge cracking in a quench, and you are correct that the thinner edge of a sharpened blade is going to add considerable risk to this HT for cracks. If the bladesmith is of the opinion that the edge is just too risky to crack then another thing known to be done by bladesmiths over the years is to grind off the edge and make the edge as thick as needed to give the sword a better chance of not cracking in the quench. But that too is dependent on the person having the skills, the free time, and the correct tools to do this work. The problem I pointed out is that I dont really know much about 9260 compared to 5160 so you would have to ask someone who has experience with that steel. So as i said, it's not an impossible fix for the maker, and given that the maker of this sword likely produces 100s and 100s a swords each year, this problem with the final quenchline and its weird position is also likely not all that unknown to them as well. However my suggestion is that the owner of this sword should first think about contacting the maker/seller of the sword and lay out his case for getting a replacement. The sword was sold under the idea that it was a through-hardened blade, and clearly the quench line shows us that it is not such. Thus it is not as advertized..... and Thus should be an easy call for the sword maker/seller to see the best idea for the reputation of the company is to gladly seek to replace the sword. Now as for the issue of a sword maker/seller not accepting returned swords? That is going to be a problem. It might be "Case- Closed" at that point... If they dont mess with returns then, "Never-mind" as you are stuck and so you better just get used to the idea that this is your sword from now on. Its still a good sword . There is nothing I see that is unsafe about the sword. The quench line only shows you that the hardened blade is not all the way up as one would hope for in a "thorough-hardened" blade, but because the softer steel near the handle is not used in cutting anyway, there should be no way you will ever know the difference. Im not sure about the maker of this sword, and perhaps the quench line is where they always end up with it? Perhaps this situation is normal for them? It seems odd to me, but I would have to compare this to other swords of the same HT from them to know if this is or is not the result that were aiming for? regardless.....its a safe sword. Will still cut as well as any of its design. And should be of value for years and years to you.
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Post by chrisperoni on Sept 29, 2012 13:17:11 GMT
paypal still offers buyer protection (at least some version of this but I have read before it's difficult to use). For my custom order Jacky had me pick a similar sword on ebay and "buy it now" then he sent an updated invoice with the corrected price given my upgrades in customizing. So that is still an ebay purchase for me - it shows up on my ebay page like any other auction I won etc.. All my communications with him are tracked via ebay messaging and ebay id emails as well.
Was yours not done the same? Just a paypal invoice not tied to any ebay order? How did you initiate communication with Jacky- maybe that's the reason it's not tied to ebay? I started talking with him by messaging about a sword on ebay and went from there.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 29, 2012 13:24:29 GMT
I went to the base sword I wanted to have changes done to, contacted the seller via "ask seller a question" on the sword's eBay listing, then he sent me an invoice via PayPal.
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Post by chrisperoni on Sept 29, 2012 13:32:21 GMT
huh, that's the same way I started contact but he had me do the buy it now with a message to seller asking for the upgrades, then the invoice with the new price.
When he sent the invoice did he do so via responses to the ebay messages/emails? (you know how ebay will track emails in your "my messages" if the initial one was generated through ebay) -maybe there's an ebay record which can help with a return?
I know the feeling of getting a sword that has some obvious flaw- it's a bummer for sure. My VA ZS had that gouge ground out at the ricasso and it should have been caught by anyone handling it when they did the leather... same thing here- someone should have noticed that and not sent it out. In my case I was still happy with the sword and over time it bothered me less and less.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 29, 2012 13:49:27 GMT
Yeah, the communication was sent through eBay e-mails, but he didn't tell me to do a "buy it now." He asked what I wanted, then said it would be an extra $40, and then the invoice was sent as the full $228. I sent a message asking about the temper line thing, but haven't gotten a reply yet, but it's the weekend, and has been less than 24 hours, so I'll give it more time.
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Post by Cold Napalm on Sept 29, 2012 21:12:20 GMT
Did I say you were an expert at the particular steel (or even an expert at all?!?) or did I say you claimed to have SOME expetise on H/T process? You are the one who claimed you have done H/T before...so I am sure you have SOME expertise in that field...or are you giving advice on H/T with absolutely NO expertise in the field? Because seriously, if it's the latter, please stop...if it's the former...well you have some expertise, I am just telling you that your knoweldge and experience is a bit lacking...and your at the knows just enough to be dangerous stage.
If a bladesmith is telling you that you can use the outer steel as a jacket method you described, that is a bladesmith you should AVOID. Because one of two things will happen. The edge WILL fracture, he will grind out all the visable ones out and the ones you DON'T see will be there, all happy and waiting to cause a blade break and cause a helicopter of death scenerio...or it will break right then and there and he will just shurg his shoulder and go sorry and take your money for labor anyways. I don't care WHAT steel it is, you don't H/T a finished edge on a sword. There is a DAMN good reason why every single sword maker worth the name has to grind and grind and grind some more after the H/T of the blanks. If it was possible to not have to do that, you think they wouldn't jump at the chance to cut out a HUGE part of the labor of sword making?!? So yeah...no, this is dangerous, do NOT do it.
Now the proper way, with the edge removal...if you saying that is not a big deal...well you and I have a pretty big difference of the definition of that term. Even for a manufacturer...having to redo at least half the labor of a sword I would doubt would be considered not a big deal to them.
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