Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2012 19:58:17 GMT
I'd say it's pretty safe to say that the saber is better as a weapon of war, excluding the effect of modern firearms of course. (I'm partial saber myself).
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Post by John P on Sept 23, 2012 0:33:39 GMT
Me with a saber against a sword and buckler and then a mortuary hilt sword. We should have a video of me fighting a guy who it rather skilled with the rapier. I am just waiting for it to be sent to me. |
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Post by John P on Sept 23, 2012 0:54:33 GMT
Here it is. I should have used more high guards but I was very tired after a long day of sparring. Adam is a good fighter with excellent speed and timing |
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 23, 2012 2:10:23 GMT
Cool, vid. Adam seems to have fairly good tempo but could use a bit of practice in foot work and body mechanics. Your skill with saber definatly out classes his skill with the rapier. Over all great work the both of you, rairly do people actuly video a weapon vs weapon video of this quality. They are usuly ugly and grainy.  Again..... just awsome I need to take a trip and visit you guys sooner or later. |
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Post by John P on Sept 23, 2012 4:48:23 GMT
Thanks, we have a few more mixed videos on our you tube page. I think that Adam got the better of me in most exchanges of those exchanges but my cuts looked flashier than his thrusts to my face and throat If you are heading our way send me a PM and I'll set something up |
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Post by Anders on Sept 24, 2012 16:18:14 GMT
This is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to see.
What would you say was the most challenging thing about this fight?
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Post by John P on Sept 24, 2012 19:54:02 GMT
Some of the factors at play where. We where both tired as this was at the end of a 3 hour block of sparring. We have completely different body types. I am almost a foot taller and 100lbs heaver that Adam. He is faster on his feet but I have more reach. Because of our height difference almost all my attack where downward so he could plan for that. Even with my longer arms I had a much shorter reach and had to work to close the distance where he could hit me and I couldn't reach him
The tip of his sword was so fast that when I was in his measure and did attack his blade he could thrust and I had a hard time parrying his lungh in time. The rapier seemed to have a harder time transitioning between a parry and an attack.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 24, 2012 22:05:22 GMT
That's the part he needs to work on. There is no parry in any works of the rapier in the renaissance, the closest thing to a parry is a colection or interception. Should be all single counters. Most people can't do this, so he needs to practice, if he can he will be one of few |
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Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883 
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Post by Razor on Sept 25, 2012 6:38:48 GMT
Joseph Swetnam, defends with the rapier the same way he does with the back sword.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Sept 25, 2012 7:37:56 GMT
Personally, I would use a saber. Mainly because I have several and they are all in the 32 -36" blade length range and have some heft to them. Given that I should be able to beat the rapier down fairly easily or slide my blade down and lock them up. I feel I have a slight but significant advantage there. That and I'm a dirty fighter so if I lock the blades up in close, I'm going to punch you in the face or hook your foot. Also as all of my sabers have sharp false edges on the back or for the entire length of the back, I have a lot more options open to me as far as cuts, thrusts, draw cuts and such I can make. Add to that I'm 6'3" 210lbs but am still light and quick on my feet, I like my chances if I can lock you up or get past the first couple of passes.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 25, 2012 12:51:31 GMT
From what I know of Joseph Swetnam is that he uses a back sword with varing hilt configurations. The English rapier's use verys so much from the Itialian, Spanish, and German systems of the time that it's more like a side sword system. www.the1595.com/I asume one would interpret his works similar to the people in the above link. |
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Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883
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Post by Razor on Sept 27, 2012 5:58:52 GMT
Swetnam's system, is not Spada da Lato but rapier. He starts with rapier and dagger, rapier, than back sword he uses he back sword pretty much the same way as single rapier. He even says that the rapier is the better sword than the back sword (side sword, broad sword) because of its length. He like his rapier to be 4' long and his daggers to be 2' long.
His system is link with Itialian rapier with traditional English sword arts.
Silver explains what to do and it has work for me. He says to make narrow space with with the swords or points(tip). A quick way to explain this without going into Silver's system, is go in either outside or inside guard and make narrow space with the rapier point with your point. Now you can move in to your measure in a safer guard. If he thrust, you can easily push his point off line or if he cavazione under your blade, defend with a low hang guard.
This is why it's best to find is piont with yours.
For me, I find it easier to do single tempo parry and attack with cuts than trust.
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Post by John P on Sept 27, 2012 6:10:48 GMT
Thanks for the advice. I really need to get around to seriously going through Silver.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Sept 27, 2012 14:43:46 GMT
Found this a few years ago, hope it explains Silver well.
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Post by John P on Oct 8, 2012 1:16:55 GMT
Some more saber and rapier. The stocky one is me and the this guy is Richard Marsden. He is a very good rapier fighter with years of experiences. I had a hard time getting in to range and I couldn't keep up with the tip of the rapier. In the video you can see him cavazione around my moulinets. When I pull up my shirt sleeve and look at my arm I got snagged by a bur. I may need to get a long sleeve fencing jacket. I have my wallet there for scale  |
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Post by VincentC on Nov 4, 2012 5:22:02 GMT
Quick tip for sabreurs! Point forward guards are susceptible to battering! Do a beat! Cut his head off!
Quick tip for rapiers! If you have any semblance of training; disengage the beat and stab him in the face with a lunge!
Not so quick tips: For the sabreur after his beat is disengaged, do a parry six or seven(depending on what side the rapier is) while moving forward and to the opponents off side (a diagonal). i.e move to where you won't run into the rapier's point. From this position you should be just outside grappling range. Two options for the sabreur here. Either complete the motion begun with the parry and moulinet to the head or cut abdomen. Or, continue with the forward momentum initiated by the traverse into grappling range with a pommel strike into the rapier fencer's face. Whichever one chosen depends on the opponents movement.
For the rapier fencer: Best option is to abort the thrust after disengage. If the rapier fencer has over committed to the lunge they are screwed (like . Two options, If you are faster than the sabreur a backwards recovery (with a parry of course) while moving offline. i.e getting the hell outta dodge. Second option, forward recovery while attempting to parry the pommel strike or at least not taking the full force of the hit on the skull. From there you should be all up in each other's grill. Attempt to continue your forward movement aided by a push. This exchange is ended. Or, attempt to grapple (this may not be an option depending on opponent), as well not suggested due to sabreur having advantage due to position of limbs at this point. Cheat and pull a knife/dagger. You do have one right?
That became longer then I expected. Here's some random observations: there's some neat things you can do with a curved blade while infighting, the offhand is supporting the inside of the curve.
Sabre against rapier (or any other quick, thrust inclined object) for the sabre do as silver says, you have to close the lines susceptible to thrusts. Basically, fence like your opponent, adopt rapier guards. Using an engaging guard meant to defend against cuts is just silly.
Any of the parries where the point is down and handle by the face (the blade position after moment of impact) is great for closing. A sabreur has the advantage while closing, unless the rapier fencer is smart and stabs them with something in the off hand.
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Post by Anders on Nov 5, 2012 15:38:24 GMT
I don't have any semblance of rapier training, but I've heard you shouldn't try to stab the head since it's a relatively small target. If you lunge at the head and miss, I imagine you are in some trouble against a sabrist.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Nov 5, 2012 16:03:52 GMT
The head isn't really that small of a target. If you miss and have proper footwork and body recovery is not a problem, if you don't you can do what is called show watch and then cut to the head, very last ditch effort like a girrita or how ever you spell that.
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Post by VincentC on Nov 6, 2012 0:26:41 GMT
I believe someone pointed it out already, or at least brought up some pictures of why stabbing people in the face is good.
Lets say you stab a sabreur in the chest. The thing is, people don't die instantly. Also, when you stab raw flesh with any force the blade gets sucked in, not sure of the scientific reason why but it happens (try it on a hanging pork roast, great fun). So! stabbing guy in chest cavity will likely cause death, and if you're lucky he'll involuntarily collapse. If he does not collapse, in between getting stabbed and dying he's pissed and still holding a weapon. You, just lost you arm. Or your skull has a big new crease.
So why stab the head (or neck works too)? Blade position. The most common attack from people using any type of cutting weapon is a downwards diagonal. When your blade is stuck in a guy's face your blade/guard naturally parries the downward blow. When your attack and parry is the same action I know it as being called opposition, though I think others call it a single time counter. Correct me if I'm wrong. Terminology is never my forte, I tend to just make the action when talking about in person.
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Post by John P on Nov 6, 2012 2:01:35 GMT
what we need is more videos of people with sabers fighting folks with rapiers. Anyone can make videos now. My clubs early videos where done with a cheep smart phone and youtube is free.
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Again..... just awsome I need to take a trip and visit you guys sooner or later.
Herron's Flight by Brendan of Fable Blades
