Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 2:51:06 GMT
I remember hearing/reading somewhere that buying a sword and armour in medieval Europe was roughly equivalent to the cost of buying a house and car today. More than the average person could make in several years, or something like that. Anyone have any idea of what a quality sword cost in, say, feudal Japan or medieval Europe?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 5:26:36 GMT
There's some variation, but that's essentially correct. Swords use more metal than many other weapons and are more difficult to manufacture. Therefore, they were expensive and usually limited to the rich nobles and professional soldiers.
Very broad question though.
|
|
|
Post by Svadilfari on Jun 4, 2012 7:13:24 GMT
It's an almost impossible question to answer in a meaningful way. Even if you had a hypothetical actual bill of sale for a sword, then it's still very hard to translate the "value" to something we would relate to today.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 8:01:48 GMT
True, I was just curious about that hypothetical bill of sale. Whats the oldest (or a very old) reciept for a sword that you know of? (is my question I guess)
|
|
|
Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jun 4, 2012 14:31:54 GMT
Well here are the oldest references I have, they are quotations from different books and quotations were included in Honcho Gunkiko. These quotations are prices from Nara period Japan (710-794). The units and payments are what would have been used in that time.
Some units 1 kin = 1,67kg (although that ratio might be wrong but that's what was on one internet calculator), ryo is japanese coin but I think it means also a weight here, 10 wa = 1 soku, 1 kin = 4 soku 5 wa. When they calculate men in this book they actually mean how many days it takes, not how many men are making it. For example 5 silversmiths means it takes a silversmith 5 days to complete his part.
I'll just write few examples here as the book has plenty of them, but few are enough to give an idea.
Engishiki XVII, Takumi chapter. One On Tachi, hard iron (ken tetsu) 10 kin 5 ryo; if good men it required 33 people: 18 ironworker, 9 silversmiths, 2 leather workers, 6 lacquerers and 8 ordinary labourers. Of ordinary men middle-class smiths fifty men and a quarter were needed if poor workers 57 1/2 were needed. Same book vol. XXVI, taxing department chapter. Fee paid for a tachi 2'4" long, 10 kin and 5 ryo of iron.
Again vol. XXXIV, woodwork department. For one gold mounted tachi 2'3" long and 1"5''' wide, paid 4 kin of iron: six sheets of thin gold plate; famous workers to the number of 23 being 18 skilled ones and 8 assistants (maybe it should be 18 and 5?) middle class workers 20 and 6 poor workers 22 and 6.
The Soken Biko quoting from the Seizeicho, a record of the period Tempyo (729-748) on the question of the cost of tachi (blades) says: 8 kin 5 ryo (said to be about 5 kilos, so my earlier ratio is way off in this case) of iron equal in value 4 soku 5 wa of rice (4 big bundles and 5 small bundles of rice as harvested) or 2 to 5 sho of refined rice (kome). The metal is now cheaper (Kokwa, 1844-47), it is only 600-700 mon (6-7 sen) per kwan (1 kwan = 3,756 grammes = 1,000 momme)
700 mon is equal to c. 0,2 ryo and thefore it equals c. 3,3g of gold. However you cannot calculate the real value in todays currencies as I have no idea what 3,3g of gold was worth in 1845 Japan (other than 1 kwan of metal...). But it's safe to say swords were very valuable in the ancient times. Just like handmade swords by todays top smiths could also be considered as valuables.
|
|
|
Post by Beaumont82 on Jun 4, 2012 17:49:30 GMT
This is pure speculation so take it with a big bowl of salt. But seeing as swords then are as guns now, I'd probably equate the cost of a good sword then to the cost of a good gun from a private gunsmith today, whereas the cost of an average sword, say, such as those that would be issued to conscripts or lower class soldiers, would be about the same as such a firearm as one might purchase in the hunting dept at Wal-Mart. Different price ranges depending on the quality of product.
Again, this is just a wild guess, but it makes sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 4, 2012 18:17:21 GMT
Dunno about medieval Europe or Japan, but according to Hurstwic, in Viking times, a sword was worth a dozen or milk cows, depending on quality, which is a bit of an abstract amount. However, if we said that a milk cow was worth, say... 20$ a pound, then we'd get a much more solid figure. The average milk cow weighs about 800 to 1000 pounds. At the low end, that's about 16,000$ worth of milk & beef. Multiply that by 12 and your sword is worth something like 192,000$.
And that's just for a sword. Imagine how obscenely wealthy a man would have been to own a sword, shield, spear, axe, seax, helmet, and ring mail.
|
|
|
Post by adtharp on Jun 4, 2012 19:06:01 GMT
Vincent - thanks for finding that, but I wanted to point out that Svadilfari is correct. We can't assume that a sword would have cost $192,000 based on those calculations, because that is not how the economy actually works. Essentially, the problem is the same one that is trying to be solved by the Consumer Price Index ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_price_index), but unfortunately, there was no consumer price index in the middle ages. Essentially, the purchasing power of a dollar is not determined just by it's fiscal value. For instance, right now you can get an iPhone and data plan for, let's say, $100 plus $100 a month. How much would that have cost in 1950? Well, we could a purely fiscal analysis and decide that a dollar in 1950 is worth about $10.00 today. So that would mean that an iPhone should have cost $10.00 plus $10.00 a month. But wait! The iPhone (or equivalent) didn't exist in 1950, so how can we compare the buying power of a dollar in 1950 to a dollar in 2012.... The answer is that we look at what the general cost of like kind items would be (ie, food, shelter, entertainment, utilities, etc.). This is why in historical accounts you often don't see "$192,000" but rather, three years wages, because that gives us a better understanding of the actual amount of money. That being the case, when I have looked at historical sources, I think that one could compare a sword pretty well to a car. It probably cost about a years wages. Some were very cheap (a $10,000 Focus), and some were very expensive (a luxury car). But for the most part, a person could afford one, and they were often sold used or passed down because they were items of great value. I also like the thought of some men-at-arms having "company" cars. The lord would issue swords to various people who needed them. I think a professional soldier would think of their sword like a farmer might think of his truck, it is very expensive, probably more than a years wages, but it is worth it to get the best quality one that can do the work that you need it to do. Finally, you have to think of this historically as well. For instance, the fiscal system of the Dark Ages was completely slanted and impossible to compare. Peasants had no money, and lords had more money than they knew what to do with. If you could afford a sword, you could likely afford to hire a blacksmith full time. By the high middle ages, there was a well developed merchant class that could afford swords, so it really depends on when you are looking at. The car example is not perfect, but I think it demonstrates this question well enough, but sword ownership and cost is something that is impossible to complete explain and understand in a short post.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 20:12:18 GMT
Very informative, just the type of thing I was looking for, thank you! As to the viking source cited, I live in a rural area, and a quick search of craigslist tells me that dairy cows go for $1000 - $4000 on average. Let's say $3000, that puts the value of our viking sword at roughly $36,000. That fits in well with the "about the price of a car" answer. I must admit I'm a bit stymied by the Japanese source, but I'm hardly suprised they kept some detailed records. I'm sure someone could extrapolate that info in to a modern sum. The main thing I get from this?; I sure appreciate living in a time when $300 - $1000 will get you a damn fine sword! Sewers and hospitals are nice too. :mrgreen:
|
|
|
Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 4, 2012 20:34:25 GMT
I know; I was just using that calculation to give a hard figure for the sake of discussion.
|
|
|
Post by Adrian Jordan on Jun 4, 2012 20:42:03 GMT
This is an interesting question. For the Japanese sword, I would have thought that there would be precise records as they tended to demand a receipt for everything down to the last grain of rice. I'd also like to see what the spread was like between a crummy, lowest-tier sword to a high-end "mostly for decoration," status symbol type sword and how the price fluctuated between the eras. I wonder where you'd have to go to see even some of that information.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 4, 2012 21:15:51 GMT
Idiot test: If swords cost as much as cars do then wouldn't sword makers be some of the wealthiest men in History? ( Ya know, just like Gus n Tinker n Sonny.) :lol:
Much medieval composition work was done on assembly line principles. There were actually blade smithies that specialized in grinding out blades for sale to furbishers. You could get outfitted at a reasonable price as a yeoman.
The distinction comes for true royal crafted items that went to the elite. Those who catered to the needs and whims of the upper class could make a very good living.
High Medieval/Rennaissance warfare came to a skittering halt because arms and armor had become so intensely specialized and elaborate that you couldn't afford it. ( It wasn't just guns that imploded the use of armor. )
Charles V of Burgundy,Austria and Spain is a case in point of the conspicuous consumption of the time that pissed away all the gold of the New World buying every toy they could get their hands on.
|
|
|
Post by Odingaard on Jun 4, 2012 21:53:52 GMT
There were actually some medieval price lists on MyArmoury, but the link escapes me. I remember that swords varied wildly in costs on it, with some being only the equalvalent of a few dollars and others being extremely high priced, in excess of $100,000.00. I'd guess it was probably much like today with wild variances in quality and functionality. So, if you were poor, you bought the few dollar hunk of sword-shaped slag, and if you were a rich nobleman, you had Ulfberht make you one for $100,000.00. Or, if you were really, really, really poor - you'd just scavange one off the battlefield or out of a grave. :lol:
|
|
George
Member
Banned
Posts: 1,899
|
Post by George on Jun 4, 2012 22:19:14 GMT
I can only assume, they were very much an important part of daily life. Much like a car today. Of course there would be different models and some better than other. In saying that you can assume in TODAYS prices you would pay around $15,000 up to $200,000 depending on the 'model' you wanted. This is my opinion but it makes sense to me
|
|
Sam H
Member
Posts: 1,099
|
Post by Sam H on Jun 4, 2012 23:13:03 GMT
Actually I'd assume they were NOT a very important part of daily life. Cars of today in modern societies are everywhere. Almost every family owns one, many of them own more than one.
I doubt everyone was running around with swords back then.
|
|
|
Post by Student of Sword on Jun 4, 2012 23:54:21 GMT
I read somewhere (I have to look it up again) that during the time of William the Conqueror, a sword was equalled to cost of 7 cows.
|
|
|
Post by Odingaard on Jun 5, 2012 1:09:53 GMT
Found it! Here, prepare to have your mind overloaded with this info: whitebard.tripod.com/prices.htmNow, just giving a once over - swords, armor, and other weapons are not nearly unattainable in price as one would think in medieval Europe. Pretty solid info pulled from a variety of resources. Bookmark it for future reference!
|
|
|
Post by ineffableone on Jun 5, 2012 1:36:13 GMT
Great list, it really does help get an idea of the cost of stuff back in the day seeing a list like that, especially since it shows wages for different trades too.
|
|
|
Post by 14thforsaken on Jun 5, 2012 6:08:47 GMT
What was really expensive was a trained war horse.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 5, 2012 9:18:01 GMT
Thanx! Way too interesting. A commoner could get fully outfitted for war for about 4 months wages! That average holds true probably for most castes, leastways until you get to nobles, who could go for broke. ( Gilt and etched armor for 340lbs; when a commoner made 12lbs a year :shock: )
|
|