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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 13:28:00 GMT
I read something about using katate maki because it was easier to wrap tightly without proper tools, and that it suits single handed use well, too. Then again that makes me wonder why didn't they just use hira maki zuka, because it looks even more of a simple "spiral wrap". I've currently got one Paul Chen PK and I indeed like the hira maki zuka more than I like the regular hineri maki or tsumami maki. Some people prefer to have bumps but for me they create a feeling of insecurity and unevenness.
I think that when I get my next sword, I'll be re-wrapping it in katate maki if only to differentiate it from the mall-shinken that some of my friends have in the regular hineri maki.
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 20, 2012 15:07:24 GMT
Incorrect. The swords were hardly used at all during the wars. They were used far more in peace time than in war times. Depend on the warring period, the weapons of choice during wars were bows, spears, and matchlocks -- NOT swords.
Secondly, the tachi of earlier period were more showy and opulent than later period Edo katana. I just visited the Asian Arts Museum in San Francisco last week, the two katana on displayed were mid-Edo. They both have black silk tsuka-maki over white same, black lacquered saya. The fittings were shakudo but plain.
Most earlier tachi were gaudy with gold gilding and brightly color ito. I invited people to look at old color wood block prints, you will see that all the earlier tachi were very colorful.
There is a general tendency to think that the surviving artifacts are the common items at the time. Swords that were not in used have a better chance of surviving than swords that were in use. Therefore, opulent and showy swords of the Edo Period would more likely to survive than swords that were used in street brawls. Therefore, showy and opulent swords are not representative of swords during the Edo Period.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 1:23:41 GMT
Student, I of all people definitely know swords were only backup weapons, and that samurai were mounted archers whose primary weapons were bow (yumi) and spear (yari), I haven't spent the last twelve months on this forum debunking the samurai myths for nothing!
Back to the main topic, I realised that both katate maki and Tachi Tsukagashira Kake maki both use folded ito at the ends and flat wraps in the middle, the first has a spiral wrap centre, the second uses a criss-cross wrap like hira-maki - which gives them both a dog-bone shape, where the hand sits in the flat part.
This makes sense if katate maki was used during the transition period from tachi to uchigatana where it was used single handed off horseback, and Tachi Tsukagashira Kake maki was used on tachi which were held with one hand on horseback too.
If we examine the mechanics of a cavalry sabre in action, it is employed with a single hand (less secure grip than two hands) while moving forward at speed striking a target with a wide sweeping motion, so the blade drags through the target as you move past. The blade encounters a lot of resistance because there is a lot of friction in such a cut, and a lot of inertia to overcome when the blade first strikes the target.
Taking a look at the physics, the forces encountered are basically trying to leave the blade in the target, and are acting to pull the tsuka out of the hand. These forces are completely different to those experience in the tsuba when the sword is used by stationary foot soldier in a regular draw cut.
So, if we add it up, we have a weaker grip since we are using only one hand, and the way the sword is being used has a greater tendency to be pulled out of the swordsman's hand, especially if the blade jams in the target while the horse is moving, so we would ideally use a tsuka wrap that is far more secure for single handed use and gives the strongest grip to prevent the sword being pulled from the swordsman's hands. A dog-bone style wrap such as katate maki and Tachi Tsukagashira Kake maki serves this purpose, and this is supported by the history which tells us where these wraps were used. I'm fairly convinced now that these are superior grips for one handed use that provide a more secure grip than the others because the ends of the wrap are thicher than the centre.
Zepra, as you mentioned, it's not about it just being easier to wrap, otherwise they would have just used hira-maki, which is exactly like Tachi Tsukagashira Kake maki, except it doesn't have the folded ito "dog-bone" ends design.
Student, I don't want to derail the topic, but it was recorded historically that the market for ornamental sword fittings took off in the Edo period, it was huge, everyone wanted pretty baubles for their blades at that time! Agreed the tachi pictures I've seen are quite gaudy and overdone, wondering if these are just surviving pieces that were worn by high ranking military or used for display only that never saw combat like you mention.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 11:06:59 GMT
I think it's just because it's easier to wrap tightly without proper tools, as opposed to getting the folds in tsumami-maki or hineri-maki evenly. Or maybe it's just (heaven forbid) for aesthetics and named katate-maki just because. Delving into the semantics without historical knowledge or book reference is going to remain inconclusive, in my humble opinion.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 21, 2012 12:21:47 GMT
yes....in your view of a battle wrap, do you like it?
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 21, 2012 12:27:01 GMT
It seems a correct assumption ...
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 21, 2012 12:34:40 GMT
The only real down side to the battle wrap i see is that I question if its better than the normal wrap in wet /muddy conditions?
At that gets to back to the concept behind the normal wrap in the first place?
What is the thinking behind the crossed wrapping on the normal wrap?
It it for better grip in the rain?....I ask because when I look at the normal wrap I see it as almost a snow tire tread for the hand...
This is just a guess as i cant think of anyone who would drag his sword out in the rain or snow, but a Battle wrap would be harder to grip if it got wet and grimy would it not?...sorta like holding a wet /greasy broom handle?
On the other hand, in armor with a glove on you would want a thinner handle to grab on to.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 21, 2012 12:38:22 GMT
as seen from a distance, say from across the room as you look at a sword, would you like the look of a battle wrap?
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Post by johnwalter on Apr 21, 2012 14:10:56 GMT
I have two wrapped in katate maki with a daisho on the way and another tsuka will be wrapped that way soon.I like the look and feel but there are some students in class who dont.I like it,bjt no more than the 15 or so I have in hineri maki.
Something to think about.If in battle your hineri maki gets cut,you now have to pieces of ito to work with.And what wrap uses two pieces.My opinion is this is a very plausable explanation of how this wrap came about.Just a guess tho.
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Post by Opferous on Apr 22, 2012 0:24:20 GMT
If lacquered, you really shouldn't have an issue with wet weather, since absorption of water will be minimal. It's important to note that samegawa behaves poorly in water (lots of it anyhow, like with rain), so a well-lacquered katate-maki would be beneficial in preserving the samegawa and thus the overall structural integrity of your tsuka. If I remember correctly, tsuka-mae were not utilized until the Edo period, so using katate-maki as an early preservation method would plausible.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 23, 2012 11:39:01 GMT
Kumdoalan you sometimes ask very difficult questions. Therefore as you see it's hard to give an answer to your question.
Mr. Takeuchi's article is one of the best resources I've found of this subject in english.
You seek information on later version of katate-maki, which is commonly referred as battle wrap in english. I do not know the reason for this, and it's really hard to track down origins of the term battle wrap. While people talked both versions of katate-maki simultaniously in this one thread, it's important to know the different time periods (commonly) on these styles. And to diffrentiate one style from another to avoid mixing things up.
The first style of katate-maki is that also know as akechi katate-maki. This was the style that was used in Akechi koshirae and Tensho koshirae and was used in Muromachi period (1392-1572). Muromachi period was the dawn of katana. Akechi koshirae gets it's name from Akechi Mitsuharu. This is the tsukamaki style that people are talking about when they talk about katate-maki in the period where a switch from horseback to feet was made. This is the older of these two styles of katate-maki.
The second style is one of those "prissy peacetime wraps"... just kidding but I know how some of you think of Edo period wraps. This "battle wrap" that you are looking information is mainly Edo period (1600-1867) tsukamaki style. It was used in Toppei koshirae and Satsuma koshirae. Both being mainly late-Edo koshirae styles as far as I know. Sure other styles may have used it too but these are the 2 utilitarian styles I've read using it. Some variations of this later katate-maki style are very decorative where as some are quite plain.
So summed up, older katate-maki style = utilitarian, newer katate-maki style "battle wrap" = more decorative. I'll let people decide for themselves if the "battle wrap" is just "artistic wrap with no function", I personally don't dislike Edo period items even though I prefer the look and style of older items.
These are mainly just my own conclusions and information I've read on books and on the Internet. And some of it may be wrong. Hira-maki, katate-maki "battle wrap", hineri-maki, all are difficult to wrap if wanting perfection.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 12:27:25 GMT
Well, to be honest, at first I wasn't sure if katate-maki really grabbed me, but since I've been looking at the various styles of wraps that are used and given it some thought, yes, it does catch my attention now. I like the utilitarian, practical, "this sword means business" look of this wrap, along with the fact that it's less common and stands out from the rest of the millions of hineri-maki wrapped tsukas in the world.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 23, 2012 23:47:28 GMT
Here is another
you like a battle wrap?
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Post by Derzis on Apr 24, 2012 0:11:12 GMT
Yeah, I like it - to answer a question floating here. What I don't like are menuki attached to it. Makes no sense to have them.
And to answer to the OP, there is a sense to it - if you really try to find one. Has minimum number of diamonds to insure a good grip of the sword without spending too much time on doing the tsuka-maki - lets say, it's efficiency at max. The problem appears when you are using the battle wrap style for a too long tsuka. In that case it's just odd to have it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 3:44:52 GMT
I'm thinking along te same lines Derzis, I think the menuki look out of place, thinking of leaving them out if I do this wrap. It appears that when katate-maki became just another fashion statement, the menuki would have been added just out of practise as part of that fashion. If we consider that the original purpose and position of menuki was to hide the menuki pegs and to stop them falling out, theor presence anywhere else if just fashion, and it's a myth that they serve as a "palm swll" for better grip, as some placements have them underthe fingers instead. Just out of interest, found an article of katate-maki on the same site that Derzis posted a link to for another thread, the author actually totally contradicts my earlier comemnts and states that the early katate-maki was a flat spiral wrap only, and the "battle wrap" katate-maki came out later as another fashionable style only without a specialised practical purpose. I don't think I agree with this, but here's the link to the article: www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT ... e_maki.htm |
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 24, 2012 4:23:18 GMT
Those two tsuka below are considered "practical" or "utilitarian" and they are not katate-maki. Those are mostly known as Satsuma Rebellion koshirae. But they pre-dated the Satsuma Rebellion. Before the Satsuma Rebellion, they normally were cheap swords kept in storage by the clans to be loan out in time of war. They however became popular during the Satsuma Rebellion.
Pay attention the material of the bottom tsuka. The ito is hemp cord. There is no same, just plain wood. The menuki are cheap copper coin. The fuchi has no bottom, just an iron ring. A Hanwei PK would luxury compare to these tsuka.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 13:53:45 GMT
They sure are utilitarian. I had a closer look at the photos, even the hemp cord wrapped tsuka has a proper folded hineri-maki wrap!
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Post by lamebmx on Apr 24, 2012 16:11:57 GMT
Allrighty, well pay attention blackthorn since you are looking into this wrap style lol.
I know the all bearing secret of the battle wrap. Done proper it is not much faster than hinera-maki (whatever the normal wrap is). I have spent just as much time keeping the omote and sides parallel & the jump on the ura all nice and proper. So if you want to have the great look, it still takes time dedication and patience. For each crossover you eliminate, you have to passes with the battlewrap to do. string cut in battle, possible but only if you were lucky enough to still have fingers and it got cut in a pretty specific area.
onto the truth! material is expensive, i spent 1/3 the cost of a KC katana on silk for its handle. to re-wrap normal wrap with the same ito is hard & precise. if its perfectly centered and you dont pull them all the exact same, one side will grow and the other shrink. you can gain a little leeway by shortening the tsuka. or you can re-wrap it in a battlewrap.
With the battlewrap, wrap it 4 times loosely up the handle, center your omote beginning. unwrap and begin the battle wrap with 3 crosses. for the bulk of the handle, the stretch can only be even because its one strand. When you have room for 3 crosses to finish, cut the remainder in half. back up 2 twist of the battle wrap portion and insert the loose end. re-wrap those two and intgrate the loose string into your final crosses. Boom wrapped handle w/o having to fork over the dough on some expensive silk or leather.
Please take my confident know-it-all tone in jest. This is really just my n00b opinion. for the record, IMO battlewrap has less grip on the right hand. IMO i dig the way it shows of the menuki. IMO, back in the day it would make it easy to get to them precious metal menuki funds stored in the tsuka, if your that broke you probably couldnt afford fresh ito. Lastly, I gotta try the katate W ura side twists, looks fun and off balance feeling. probably will make the omote, ha & mune portion easier too!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 1:59:09 GMT
It's cool, I know you're writing in a not-so-serious tome! Thanks for sharing your experience, it all helps when we learn from each other. It's really a matter of taking in what everyone elese has said, than giving it a go to put that knowledge into practise. I realise that all this takes patience, there really aren't any short-cut wraps, just ones that take a lot of time and ones that take even more time!
You're game to try an assymetrical wrap, let us all know how it goes!
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Post by lamebmx on Apr 25, 2012 2:13:37 GMT
it will be a while as I have no subjects at the moment and up to 3 projects since the wrap on my ronin gave up. going with the normal wrap and some menuki I had picked up on my namikawa order. I really hate dragons, but they looked too good to pass up. all plain fittings with a bit of flair here and there.
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