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Post by doctorbanana on Apr 1, 2012 15:40:43 GMT
Yeah so i am interested in learning how to polish/sharpen katanas using sharpening stones. I'm not really sure where to begin or what books are good at teaching how to do it. Also I don't know how many types of stone, or what type of stone I should get. I've got a cheness tenchi, which uses monotempered 9260 spring steel, that i can practice on. Is that kind of blade good enough to be a training tool? I don't mind if I mess up on that one. Basically my purpose is that i just want to know how to sharpen my L6 mas katana properly(when i get it) when the edge of that becomes a bit dull. I don't know yet the scope of difficulty of this endeavour
*edit* I just want to emphasize that I want to learn sharpening skills geared specifically towards a MAS L6 katana, or other modern katanas.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 1, 2012 15:57:05 GMT
This would be the best book in english on the subject I guess: www.amazon.com/The-Art-Japanese- ... 998&sr=8-1 I own the book and it's a goldmine of knowledge. As for stones, they will cost a lot, so you might have to be very determined if choosing to order traditional stones. I can only speak for traditional stones as I don't have knowledge in polishing, so I cannot offer any contemporary varieties. I guess the coarsest stone you'd need for that sword would be binsui. Then the the order goes kaisei, chu-nagura, koma-nagura, suita, then uchigumori ha-to and uchigumori ji-to. I left out the 2 most coarse stones arato and kongoto. All these swords are needed for foundation polishing. I'm not going to start on finishing polish or angles/ directions each stone is used. The book will explain you theory of most of these things, I suggest investing 45$ in it. Read it and if you still are up to polishing, then I'd advice getting some stones. Namikawa offers their japanese sword polishing kit for 45000Y, but I remember reading on some sources that stones in that are fairly small in size and it's wiser choice to order stones through them and not the whole kit.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Apr 1, 2012 16:44:55 GMT
what I have noticed?
There are billions of low-end swords in this world being used right now to cut all kids of targets. there are 100s and 100s of YouTube videos posted of guys doing cutting.
and yet where are all the videos of the same guys sharpening their swords?
Oh I find a few videos that talk about sharpening a low-end sword. I find a few comments here and there about how guys claim to have sharpened a katana themselves. I even see a few videos where a guy gets all ready to start sharpening a sword.
But I have yet to see a guy, turn on a camera, grab a low end under $150 sword, and sharpen it...
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Post by William Swiger on Apr 1, 2012 17:33:17 GMT
I use a fine grade whetstone to sharpen my low end katana and have also used the same to reshape a broken tip. I am working in Germany at present and do not have a workshop or garage here (miss my house in Kentucky). I sit in my den and just take my time and very lightly use the whetstone by hand.
Sorry - no video.
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 1, 2012 20:21:33 GMT
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Post by chris osborne on Apr 1, 2012 22:48:40 GMT
Hi Doc, The book suggested will make for some very good reading and will certainly further your knowledge and appreciation of the Japanese sword. I would definitely suggest you read it. That said, it will be of little to no value for the kind of application you are concerned with. For working on modern swords most all of the techniques will be modern. It makes me cringe to think of a decent finishing stone having modern, mono-steel swords wearing it away to no benefit. For the most part, no traditional polishing methods will work on a modern steel; and by work I mean work the way they are supposed to. Not the scratchy, cloudy mess which is the usual result. I said that not directed at you but just a general statement for the benefit of all. You seem to have a good grasp of the direction you want to go in and what you intend to achieve. The goals you stated are by all mean doable, just stay focused on them and be careful of the advice you take, some of which can lead you in the opposite direction of where you're wanting go and be counterproductive.
For removing grinding marks on a newly made custom sword or for putting a decent shape and clean lines into a production sword, the synthetic foundation stones work very good up through the kaisei stone. It will take you about a year to get comfortable with them and be able to make a decent shape if you have the knack for it. Be prepared to sacrifice quite a few production swords learning the basics of cutting clean lines. After you can take an unshapely, cheap production sword and put some nice clean lines into it then you might be ready to tackle your more expensive L6. I have used synthetic stones past that to get better geometry and a cleaner surface but still achieve the finish with modern methods.
All that said, dressing the edge and restoring the finish on a sword like this need not require use of stones. It can all be done using abrasive papers, diamond compounds, polishing pastes and different types of etchants. Mastering these things however is an art within itself and can take some time to get to the point where an extremely fine finish is achievable. There are a few tutorials on hybrid-polishing floating around the web that might be of value to you.
Chris
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 1, 2012 23:42:26 GMT
Hello Chris, very nice to see you here.
Your advice like always is spot on, very informative post. I just reread the opening post and I missed the light touch up sharpening back to keen edge, guess mentioning the stones put me off a bit. Like I said earlier I have no knowledge in polishing other than theory of polishing traditional japanese swords. And I have never known that some of these phases do not work on modern steels, learning new things every day. Now I've seen the difference in finish of some synthetic stone vs. traditional stone but for a novice like me it really hard to understand the fine parts of difference.
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Post by chris osborne on Apr 2, 2012 0:33:28 GMT
Hi Jussi and thanks! Please don't take anything I said in a negative way, it's just that I've seen people go out and buy lots of expensive polishing supplies only to discover that much of it wasn't useful to them. It can sometimes be a convoluted subject and easy to go off in a wrong direction depending on what you want to achieve.
Chris
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 2, 2012 1:28:46 GMT
Yes buying polishing supplies can be very expensive and learning the polishing process will take more time than many are willing to invest. As you will easily end up using several hundred euros in just the stones. And walking in a shop that sells fine grit sandpapers, and polishing compounds and pastes, you'll be getting lots of useful equipment for 50€ budget. And as you said they will work better with modern production swords.
However one thing I've wondered is how those sharpening stones that are made for tools will work. As we have one company in Finland that offers handmade natural sharpening stones made for planes, scythes and knives. They offer one 2-sided stone for planes in which one side has c.1000 grit and other side 4000 grit, and other model for planes with c. 600 and 2000 grit sides.
I've thought few times on getting that 1000/4000 stone, as I've had trouble finding 2000 or 2500 grit sandpapers. Could use that 4000 side for finishing polish. This has only been on thought level but I'll be soon getting a high quality production sword in bit bad shape and might want to do some touch up for it.
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Post by chrisperoni on Apr 2, 2012 2:35:29 GMT
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 2, 2012 3:10:02 GMT
Well others can give out better advice, I can just offer my first thoughts.
It's packaged quite nicely, and it could probably be used as a decorative item too. However the price is so low, there has to be some issues with the quality of stones. I know Finland is an expensive country but in here you'll end up paying more money on good single waterstone than that whole set costs.
This set seems to be made by Chinese swordmaker Masahiro and not the Japanese knifemaker Masahiro that also offers sharpening stones. Not totally sure but I think that Chinese Masahiro has had some other similar articles before, cutting stands, sword stands etc. I'm meaning they mainly make them cheap and try to sell off to people who buy their swords.
That bucket and laddle combination is nice, however as a finn I can't help to mention we would use those in sauna.
However, if you would like to own one and the stones would be even mediocre level I don't think it's necessarily a bad deal. But knowing how huge the US market is I believe you will find higher quality stones for the same money invested.
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Post by doctorbanana on Apr 2, 2012 4:18:37 GMT
Thanks alot for the advice guys! I guess I have a more clear direction of how to approach this. So what I get is that traditional polishing techniques and materials wouldn't be so effective on these modern L6 blades. And that a more modern approach would be more beneficial. If you guys can offer me some direct links on what to buy and what reading material would be the best for this specific purpose, that would be so great Though I don't really have a ton of production swords that I can practice on... Was hoping 1 practice sword would be enough I just noticed that MAS also sells 2 Sharpening stones, 1000 grit($48), and a 6000 grit($68). Also they sell Pikal metal polish. Is this all I need, and do I need both stones? Since that's all they offer in terms of sharpening materials, I speculate that this alone is sufficient enough? ( martialartswords.com/miscellaneo ... 2ca2a91882) Since you mentioned that you also own a MAS L6 blade on another post, do you think this info from this knife sharpening dvd be applied to MAS L6 swords as well?
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Post by wolf_shade on Apr 2, 2012 14:14:56 GMT
TomK posted fairly good set of videos on the topic. Not suitable for what the original question was, but good for how to sharpen if you just want a cutting edge.
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Post by drdata on Apr 2, 2012 19:50:27 GMT
Chris, thanks for posting that. Wish it had been a year sooner. I have experimented with some 01 and 1090 blades and tried the traditional route for polish, or at least tried using stones. I had a mix of coarse to fine diamond, then some natural stones, one supposedly 12000 grit.
I should have done more file work, but in the end worse myself and many stones out, and never really liked the finish. Hazy/cloudy, ugly.
On a recent tanto project that is nearing heat treat I used 220 sandpaper, and am really surprised at how polished it looks. Far easier than a stone on the curved geometry as well.
Its paper for me on modern steel blades.
Regards
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Post by doctorbanana on Apr 2, 2012 20:17:16 GMT
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Post by chrisperoni on Apr 2, 2012 20:21:21 GMT
accusharp would DESTROY the edge and geometry of a katana. The angles an accusharp force you to use are waaayyy off from what you want on a katana. They are not even right for any other swords imo. The accusharp is best left for machete's and knives- and only cheap ones at that. I really don't even think it should be on the SBG site as a suggested option- does more harm than good. I have one but only use it on my $5 knockoff folding knives. To be honest I don't even use it on those anymore- since the time I bought high grit sandpaper for sharpening swords I haven't even looked at my accusharp. For about $100 you can buy a 1"x30" belt sander and all the belts you'll need. Follow the link alrady given for Tom K's sharpening advice and you'll be all set to touch up the edge on every bladed item in your home. This: -usually about $50 for a 1" belt sander. The ones with the disc sander on the side go for about $80 but you can find them on sale Plus these: -a set of belts including the leather strop & green compound will be about $50 give or take shipping.
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Post by willhart on Apr 2, 2012 20:31:48 GMT
I don't think it would destroy the edge, as it would be sharp, but it would destroy the geometry of the blade. I'm not promoting Accusharps as I've only used them on kitchen knives.
I tried Tomk's hand sharpening with sandpaper and realized that my hands were way to inconsitant to use the sand paper and that it would take a really really long time.
I then bought the belt sander that he recommended and have sharpened one of my Katana's with a convex edge and it will shave the hair on my arm. I've never used stones to sharpen, but I'm guessing they will take as long if not longer than sand paper, which for me would probably be over 6-8 hours if I were to move up the grit. I can't recommend TomK's method enough with the belt sander.
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Post by chris osborne on Apr 2, 2012 21:52:22 GMT
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Post by chris osborne on Apr 2, 2012 21:57:03 GMT
And to answer the question on stones: yes, lots of different stones made for sharpening tools will also work well on swords, some better than others though. The synthetic stones sold by Namikawa however have been specifically chosen because of their effectiveness for sword polishing, so they tend to be a better starting point as you know coming out the gate that they will work well for their intended purpose. Very high grit stones aren't especially useful for most hybrid polishing as the work can be better accomplished with paper at that level.
Chris
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Post by doctorbanana on Apr 3, 2012 18:26:33 GMT
thanks I think i will start with this one. But do I really need several katanas to practice on, or is 1 ok to get the experience I need?
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