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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 25, 2012 4:17:58 GMT
I'm looking for a flip open knife, something under 4 inches that has a clip so I can affix it to my jacket inside pocket. Heres the catch, It has to have a hamon. And if possible be folded steel.
Price range is anything under 75$ Anyone got any in mind that I should check out?
Edit: Any knife with a fixed blade under 7 inches is acceptable too. no tantos though lol
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Greg
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,800
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Post by Greg on Feb 25, 2012 4:24:55 GMT
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 25, 2012 4:27:36 GMT
I've seen numerous folders with hamon or laminations resulting in the same effect, but I can never find them when anybody asks. Granted, as Greg suggests, finding one for under $75 is a bit...yeah, no.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Feb 25, 2012 4:41:13 GMT
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 25, 2012 5:03:44 GMT
I don't know how important a lock is to you, or if you really must have a clip, but Citadel's got a couple nice folders with hamon for around the $80-90 mark. They're all listed as "friction, no lock" which concerns me, personally, but then again I've carried slipjoint pocketknives for years without major issue...but these days I like locks.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 25, 2012 5:15:15 GMT
I wasn't sure if I could find anything of this kind. I just saw something that sparked interest in another thread and thought I'd ask. Thanks guys!
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Post by ChrisRiley93 on Feb 25, 2012 6:10:41 GMT
Hey, that first one is $75. There's just a 5 in front of it.
:lol:
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Sébastien
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Retired Moderator
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Post by Sébastien on Feb 25, 2012 7:48:30 GMT
The hamon/folded steel part doesn't help, folders with that type of blade steel are usually quite expensive, compared to their non-hamon siblings.
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Post by Student of Sword on Feb 25, 2012 17:29:50 GMT
I am surprised Hanwei had not try to fill this niche. They have mastered hamon in their katana. Why not apply it to folding knife. It will be more than $75 for sure, but it will be much cheaper than most other DH knives out there, which are all custom knives.
In fact, there are great demand for knives (not swords) with hamon -- hunting knives, bowies. A custom bowie with hamon cost more at least $700. A custom hunter cost at least $200. If Hanwei can make a Great Wave Tanto for $275, they can make a bowie in the same price range.
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 25, 2012 18:00:11 GMT
I just bought the higo nokami knife they sell. Its not exactly what I wanted but its pretty sweet and dirt cheap so I picked it up.
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ghost
Member
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Post by ghost on Feb 26, 2012 0:50:36 GMT
the fixeds come thick though.
I have no idea why, but I drop my folders all the time - especially when I put them away...the clips like to catch. Dropped a folder twice this week already. Not sure EDCs w/ hamons are a good idea, they would probably chip from a light drop.
I could definitely see them being used on ZT sized and up blades...but they wouldn't be "tough" by any means.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2012 4:53:49 GMT
Need to understand why a sword blade has an edge temper pattern in the first place. The design of a sword is nothing like that of a knife. The only reason why you'd DH a sword blade is to give it a bit of flexibility in the spine while retaining a hard edge, otherwise the whole thing would snap in half like a hacksaw blade - the aestetics of the pretty edge patterns are secondary, they are a consequence of the DH process, not the reason. A short blade is not subjected to the flexing forces of a hard sword blade, so it can be through-hardened and thus heat treated differently, giving different hardness characteristics to a sword.
Considering that the Japanese have an obsession with laminating and/or edge tempering everything, including their woodworker's marking knives and carpenter's chisels, the reason they do this seems to be tradition. The Chinese taught them how to do this when they first started learning how to forge blades, and they have been doing it ever since. Hence why they would do it with a short tanto blade.
I agree with ghost, you wouldn't want a ridiculuously hard edged DH blade for a practical working knife or EDC blade, too prone to chipping. DH designs can bend and set too, something you don't want in a knife. Japanese DH blades are a great blade design for a draw cutting sabre blade used on soft targets, not so great on a practical blade. Suppose that's why any knife made this way, considering the extra trouble to manufacture it, and the lack of any real need for it being made that way, means its a custom that will cost good money. But that's just my opinion...
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 26, 2012 6:16:58 GMT
Honestly, your right Blackthorn, there is really no practical use to it. I just wanted one with a hamon to have something cool to talk about.
But if you think about it would you even need a tanto blade, or even a wakizashi to be TH? Is the blade really going to be taking any sets in its short length? Why sacrifice the edge retention of DH when the flexibility of TH is not even going to be an issue? For a tanto I wouldn't understand why it would be TH at all. Seems like you might as well give the edge that extra hardness if you know how to do it properly. Its not like a blade that long can even take a bend at all. And if I'm not wrong, shorter smaller blades are harder than longer blades, which need the extra softness to not be too brittle.
I know nothing of blade smithing, this just seems like basic physics and makes sense to me in this way, please explain if I'm wrong.
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Post by Student of Sword on Feb 26, 2012 6:33:14 GMT
Blackthorn, Except modern Western smiths differentiate hardening their bowies and hunting knives as well. I own Western hunting knives that are laminated san mai as well as differentiated hardening hamon. This one, for example: www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... nd-Micarta More from the attachments. The middle one is mine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2012 9:57:29 GMT
Student, You're correct, even production knifemakers like Cold Steel make most of their best really big fixed blades in a san mai laminated design - like the san mai Trailmaster bowie ( www.coldsteel.com/trailmaster.html), and even a san mai kukri ( www.coldsteel.com/sanmaigurkha.html). It adds considerably to the price. zentesukenVII - yes, a short blade is more rigid and a long blade needs more 'give'. Well, tantos can vary in size from small knives to blades coming close to short sword length, so I should have been more specific, longer tantos would benefit from a DH blade, littel 'uns, not so much. This sums it up well (source: "Differential Heat Treating" by Terry Primos - www.knifeart.com/difbyterprim.html) "...What Is It? It goes by many names, there is differential tempering, differential hardening, selective tempering, selective hardening, zone treating, soft-back draw, and the list goes on and on it seems. By whatever name is used, it means that the blade has been heat treated to have a hard cutting edge and a softer "springy" spine. There are a few different ways to achieve this, so the term I use depends on the process I used. More on this later.
What Are the Benefits? A blade in which the spine has been hardened to a lesser degree than the cutting edge will exhibit a great deal of strength and flexibility and still have exceptional cutting ability. This is assuming of course that the heat treating was properly done.
This is quite beneficial to larger blades which must be able to handle a lot of abuse. Prime candidates would be a bowie or camp knife which might be used for chopping up firewood, clearing a path through the woods, etc. This is also good for thinner blades that require quite a bit of flexibility. Some knifemakers do differential heat treating on all their blades.
One of the performance tests for a prospective Journeyman or Master Smith in the American Bladesmith Society is the bend test. The smiths blade is clamped vertically in a vice and must be bent 90 degrees without breaking. At first one might think that all you'd have to do is temper the entire blade to a spring temper. Well, the problem with this is that the cutting edge would be too soft to pass the cutting tests. Prior to the bend test the blade must cleanly sever a one inch free hanging rope approximately six inches from the loose end, in one movement. Next it must be able to chop a 2x4 in half at least twice, with no edge damage, and still be able to shave hair from the applicant's arm. This is achieved by differential heat treatment."Looks like they're saying that if your knife is big enough to use as a sword/machete/axe, then there is a benefit in building it like a sword! It's also more advanced knifemaking, with a lot more work and skill involved, so obviously it will be more expensive. Great way for a craftsman to show mastery of his art, needless waste and expense on a small everyday working folder, especially if you drop the thing and lose it!
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 26, 2012 20:51:39 GMT
I don't know if I agree with the notion that a knife blade with a hamon necessarily has to be "too hard" for "normal use" simply by that virtue. We've seen on sword blades that just a few HRC points is enough for a "hamon" to manifest, and tho was in blades that were through-hardened and HRC of around 55. I'm not sure how accurate the information is, but I've read several places that the average pocketknife shares this figure.
We've also established elsewhere that greater hardness on shorter blades is not so much of an issue as the amount of flexing and other forces will be significantly less han larger counterparts. For instance, the notion that "stainless steel" is too brittle for anything longer than X inches, but anything shorter is dandy.
Taking he blade style that spurred this topic, the Japanese "Higo no Kami" knife, we can see that not only is such a blade perfectly suited for "normal" pocketknife tasks, but can be had fairly cheap. I've seen Japanese higo's for as low as $20-30; higher-end stuff still only around $100. My main pocketknife I carry every day cost me about $65, give or take for exchange rates, so this price range seems well within reach of an average person. I know people who carry far more expensive knives every day.
None of us have ever dropped and lost ours, either.
I once had a Kanetsune Akatsuki fixed-blade, edge HRC 62+, never chipped it. That is, until I accidentally struck a piece of metal like an idiot.
Granted, the demand is low enough that it's just never caught on enough to become become mainstream kind of thing, so production is effectively non-existant, leaving those wanting to seek custom work, and we all know it's not the kind of blade that raises prices in most knife smiths, but the custom work itself. A smith whose base price for a simple folder is $200 isn't about to take less for a custom, differentially-hardened model. The actual DH process in and of itself is most likely no.big thing to this smith, but having to man this blade specifically so, will be enough to tack on extra over just buying a normal knife he'd already made a dozen of.
Edit: This post is riddled with typos and duplicate words, courtesy of my stupid cell phone, that I regrettably haven't the time to fix right now. Please bear with them in the meantime.
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Post by Neovenetar on Feb 26, 2012 21:10:28 GMT
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Post by zentesukenVII on Feb 26, 2012 23:40:10 GMT
I just bought that same knive Neovenetar lol
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Post by Student of Sword on Feb 27, 2012 2:39:42 GMT
I bought the stag one. I would have bought the bamboo one. But the dragon carving turned me off -- so cliche.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 27, 2012 2:59:09 GMT
That's pretty much the only thing keeping me from buying either; I'm not a fan of stag, but the carving is just...no. I'd buy one of the dozens of brass-handled models from the Japanese companies first, and forfeit the handy second blade.
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