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Post by Kilted Cossack on Feb 16, 2012 4:00:40 GMT
Gents:
Imagine a theoretical hypothetical. Suppose someone found, on e-bay, a 19th century American saber blade, which had been cut---most brutally---from its hilt with a blowtorch. Said blade should---theoretically, hypothetically---be right about the standard 33 1/2" in length. But it's just the blade. No hilt, and what's worse, no tang.
In the worst of worst case scenarios, I imagine that the blade could be shortened to hanger length, with a 30" blade and 3 1/2" of hilt, overlapped with wood to a proper grip length.
But could one have a fresh tang welded in place? What perils, problems, and banging-of-head-into-walls do you foresee in trying to make it right?
Oh, it's not really a theoretical hypothetical at all. Blade's on its way to me, or should be in the next couple of days. I'd imagine that it's less problematic than an otherwise butchered blade, since I know a number of swordsmiths draw down the temper of the tang, but still, I'm full of hope and good ideas, and not much actual knowledge.
What do you say?
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Feb 16, 2012 4:19:35 GMT
I would go with cuttin a new tang into the blade. Welds are weaker than properly HT'd steel. Even if it was the perfect weld, you would still have to re HT the blade. So it would be easier to grind off a little of the blade into a new tang. 30" is pretty long anyway. Especially for a one hander.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Feb 16, 2012 5:55:01 GMT
id go for the weld myself, if that failed you could always cut the blade down.
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Post by Anuan on Feb 16, 2012 13:09:40 GMT
I'd probably say cut it down. Shame to do it, but a weld...Hm. Not seeing that going too well.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Feb 16, 2012 15:40:04 GMT
Definitely cut it down and epoxy that sucker into place. Worked for centuries with Asian swords, no reason why it can't here; pin it for extra security, perhaps.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Feb 16, 2012 16:20:57 GMT
I am actually hoping that Brendan or Sam Salvati or Avery will pop in with their guidance and clarifications, but if worse comes to worst, a 30" cleaver will be in the works.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Feb 16, 2012 17:00:05 GMT
Well... you COULD weld a tang on there (Brenno posted a pic to explain how somewhere) if you cut a deep enough recess (at least 1") in the base and insert your to-be-tang in there. Then weld along its lines. However, you'll certainly destroy the temper in the base region. I personally would cut it down but I think it's doable.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Feb 16, 2012 17:16:28 GMT
Well yeah... you can weld a tang on there, but I prefer the idea of cutting it down mainly because that's less difficult. For welding not only would you have to cut a recess, find a bit of the proper steel, find a welder, clean up the welds, and then re-temper the blade. To cut it down... all you really need is a hacksaw and files!
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Feb 16, 2012 17:48:35 GMT
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 16, 2012 21:17:21 GMT
Please dont weld a new tang. I have never seen a welded tang I would ever call safe yet. And it will be easier to make a cut one.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Feb 16, 2012 23:32:08 GMT
Cut it.
Like Elheru said, to weld a tang into place, you'd end up paying more then you did for the blade. It was likely a cavalry saber in the first place, so cutting a tang into the existing blade would bring it down to infantry length... if there was such a thing.
Also, due to the heat damage to the blade, the peening part of the tang will be soft enough and the tang itself will even be softer then the rest of the blade, which is what you want in a good sword anyway.
If you wanted to weld and reheat treat, you might was well go out and buy some spring steel stock and make your own blade.
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Luka
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Post by Luka on Feb 16, 2012 23:51:52 GMT
The blade doesn't look very wide. Why don't you just rivet the grip slabs to its sides and call it a shashka?
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Post by lamebmx on Feb 17, 2012 2:22:12 GMT
my 2 cents, 6.5" tang and a 27" blade. Quick guestimate, it should take you a little past where you can see the blowtorch messed the temper up. Which should put the collar over good blade. If the collar/guard/handle/pommel setup comes up needing less than 6.5", I would still cut there, use a peen block and chop it off. Point being, personally, I would want good blade in the collar/guard if at all possible. Personally (again) I would prefer strength there than a longer blade.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Feb 17, 2012 2:30:38 GMT
This near unanimity is convincing me.
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Luka
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Post by Luka on Feb 17, 2012 10:12:40 GMT
Btw, heat treating the tang is not important, many historical swords had soft steel to the shoulders of the blade...
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Post by Anders on Feb 17, 2012 18:07:20 GMT
They cut the tang off with a blowtorch. Methinks the temper in the base region is already destroyed anyhow.
But, yeah, I'd just grind a new tang. Messing around with welding seems bothersome.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Feb 18, 2012 18:29:21 GMT
Does anyone know how much the temper will have been drawn down? I'm pretty much settled on the shorten and grind method, now I'm just curious about the properties remaining to the blade.
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Post by lamebmx on Feb 19, 2012 20:03:41 GMT
I wouldn't quote me on this. But if they did a quick cut with acetylene, which it looks like, the remaining temper is probably alright. You can see where the heat of cutting really affected it. Just grind slow as you approach the end of the discoloration. Now, hopefully someone more knowledgeable will come along and correct or confirm.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 6, 2012 1:21:27 GMT
Gentlemen: Now I am operating in the realm of pure curiousity, having decided that the saber blade WILL and I say again will be turned into a shorter shashka. I ran across this thread at the Vikingsword.com ethnographic weapons forum: www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3800If I am understanding correctly, the tulwar's tang (check out how very short it is!) was welded into place. Does anyone have comment on this?
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Post by lamebmx on Mar 6, 2012 2:14:32 GMT
There was only one mention of welding, and it sounds like a forge welding process. Same process used to laminate the blade. Not quite the same welding that you think of when you say welded today.
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