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Post by Freebooter on Jan 29, 2012 4:09:32 GMT
Hello all, I am sure this has been discussed a million times on various forums, but if you had two guys to fight, on foot, who had equal skill and training with both the katana and the cavalry sabre, how do you think it would turn out? I mean which sword do you think is better in a fight on foot? Me, I am not sure. I like a katana, so versatile, fight with it one handed or two, seems so manouverable, etc. And I love a cavalry sabre too, the U.S. 1860 Lt Cav sabre actually is my fave, partly because of the hand protection of the guard. While not a two handed sword, you can wield the cav sabre two handed in a pinch, and there are other techniqhes of holding it, the blade, etc, with the other hand, to make it much more versatile than one might imagine when on foot. This link shows some of what I am talking about as far as fighting on foot with a sabre or scimitar type weapon goes: ... re=related . Cold Steel's "Fighting with the Sabre and Cutlass" instructional DVD set also goes into this. While on horseback you can only do so much with a sabre. But on foot it becomes much more versitile if you use it as described in the two videos. On foot you can do so much more with it other than just taking swings and jabs at someone. Just wondered what some of you thought. Freebooter |
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Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
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Post by Luka on Jan 29, 2012 12:27:58 GMT
Cavalry, especially heavy cavalry sabers maybe wouldn't fare well on foot because of their a bit far out PoB. Two handed wielding of katana is faster and better for a duel. BUT, a light fast saber or scimitar with a shorter, lighter blade and handling adjusted for foot use would be a very dangerous for a katana wielder. When you have a two handed and one handed swords with equally long blade, one handed weapon has a longer reach than one wielded with two handed grip.
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Post by somewhat on Jan 29, 2012 17:07:44 GMT
sempriniit  |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 29, 2012 17:39:32 GMT
Oh look, we're havin s'ghetti for lunch.....
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Post by William Swiger on Jan 29, 2012 18:05:03 GMT
I wonder which sword (Katana, Scimitar or Sabre) could cut the can of worms best?
Just kidding :lol:
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LeMal
Member
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Post by LeMal on Jan 29, 2012 19:06:51 GMT
Can o' worms pretty much captures it! :lol:
I'm reminded of last night's UFC card. Here's Phil Davis with a significant reach advantage--and a damn good striker--losing out on striking to Rashad Evans. (No shortage of alternative bouts over history can be inserted here.)
How do such things happen? Because, for all the (I'll keep saying it) RPG-mentality simulations we like to run in our heads, if something is being contested at approximately the same range, the variability in any person's individual style--and how they all match up, on a given day, in a given environment--is far greater than the variability in weapons.
Yes, the tactical advantage of a particular weapon can make a difference. But know what? It usually doesn't. So very much more rarely than people think, and usually for significantly greater differences--infantry with air support as opposed to without, a spear compared to a knife--than the differences you find amongst almost any sword types.
Just look at Europe alone in the 16th and 17th centuries! You have longswords and rapiers, messers and estocs, sabres and shamshirs and pallasches and baskethilts. And that's just among swords!
"Well," our RPG mentality takes over to say, "but there must be some formula to optimize the choice of sword for the man or the environment or his body type or the armor he was facing!" ('Cause that's what we hobbyists do as we play things out ad infinitum in our heads.) Well, for the most part, no It's not an issue of man picking the right tool, it's an issue of all the tools being overall good for the job, and man adapting himself to any slight differences.
Put less esoterically, and directly to your OP: even on a sabre better designed from horseback, don't count a man out. And one like a scimitar/shamshir/shasqua? Not at all.
Then again, neither count the katana man out. (Though which "katana" are we even talking about. They vary too! A huge Muromachi one? An iconic Edo one? A solid modern ko-katana?) An excellent, handy, all-purpose sword, as easily carried as a smallsword indoors and in genteel settings, but so deadly in the cut.
It's not about finding an "optimal sword." No such thing exists. It's about finding one or maybe a very few swords that feel comfortable to you and handling it until it's second nature. Accepting and working with its limitations so that they're not limitations. No matter who you're facing or where.
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Post by John P on Jan 29, 2012 19:48:59 GMT
While not a perfect simulation a few months ago I sparred against a katana guy with a cold steel brokken I was using a single stick made from a cut down O-bokken. The single stick has similar weight to a French cavalry saber but the blade was 3 inches shorter. Being single handed I could play with range a little more than my opponent who had both hands on his sword. The major advantage was that the 2 handed katana could cut with quick leverage movements but I had to rely on the movement of my arm and continued momentum for power. He won easily 2 to 1. All he had to do was stop my momentum and then cut me while I was trying recover.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 29, 2012 22:42:27 GMT
The dude with the rapier wins, walking away.
What?
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 29, 2012 22:51:30 GMT
Nope; sorry. Dude with the spear skewers all three, walking into the sunset while drinking sake.
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Post by Tendrax on Jan 29, 2012 23:45:19 GMT
The viking with a shield and an axe laughs at all of you as he beds your women and drinks your mead.
:lol:
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jan 29, 2012 23:55:25 GMT
There should be an LOLCat like that.
I'm in your castle, drinkin' your mead and pleasin' your ol' lady!
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Post by Freebooter on Jan 30, 2012 2:16:23 GMT
Lemal, yep, I figure that what one gets used to is what he is better at, like you said more or less. But that is why I said both guys would have equal training and experience with both swords. But like you said, I reckon it comes down to individual tastes, which one feels most comfortable with it, etc..
And Tendrax, speaking of the Viking, I like Viking swords too, but they just don't feel right in my hand when I swing it. I have read and been told how they held them differently than we might do it now and I can't seem to get that either. So my three Viking swords are just gracing my sword rack.
Thanks y'all,
Freebooter
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Post by Tendrax on Jan 30, 2012 2:40:35 GMT
I was having a similar type of problem, but oddly enough it feels much better with a shield in the other hand. Couldn't even begin to explain why. Maybe it has something to do with stance, or a counter balance on the other side of your body? All I know is when I pick up the viking sword alone it feels a bit slow and cumbersome, but when I pick up the shield as well everything seems to fall into place.
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 30, 2012 2:52:52 GMT
From my understanding this is a fair question since Katana, Scimitars, & Sabres were all swords originally designed as swords for use while mounted.
Katana seem to have had the most evolution away from the mounted sword to a foot sword.
Scimitars also have had evolution toward foot use, but retain more of the mounted elements.
Sabres seem to me to have done the least amount of evolution toward foot.
So mounted, the sabres have the advantage, while on foot the Katana would. Yet for all around either or a scimitar would be the best choice.
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Post by Freebooter on Jan 30, 2012 11:46:46 GMT
Ineffableone, I used to think the sabre, as much as I loved them, were all but useless on foot; Until I watched Cold Steel's "Fighting with the Sabre and Cutlass" and little things like this: ... re=related . Handled right, the sabre can be just as deadly on foot. Btw, I would like to have that sword the guy in the video has. It has a longer and better blade than most Tulwar type swords I have seen. FB |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 12:51:20 GMT
Two different styles of sword, single handed sabres and two handed sabres, with different fighting styles, strengths and weaknesses...
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Post by ineffableone on Jan 30, 2012 13:37:55 GMT
Yes I am familiar with Lindybeige's video and actually part of the reason I said scimitars would be the better all purpose sword.
I am also familiar with cold steels video. I did not say sabre was useless. I said sabre was the least evolved of the three toward foot use and still primarily designed for use on horse.
Katana evolved the most toward use on foot, to the point that the mounted katana is called a tachi not katana.
I was not trying to imply sabre can't be used by foot, or that scimitar can't. I was just laying out a simple break down as I see it what is more effective on foot vs on horse. There different swords each having different strengths and weaknesses. None I would call better than the other, only better at certain tasks.
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Post by Freebooter on Jan 30, 2012 22:22:39 GMT
Thanks. I am really enjoying y'all's responses. I learn a bit each time. Speakign of Katana's, I always thought of them as primarily a two handed weapon. But in that movie "The Hunted" with Christopher Lambert, Yoshio Harada and Mr. Lone, there were several times Harada used his one handed and used the both hands to deliver sort of final blows. Remember the one, the last blow of that particular fight, where after swiping the guy several times one handed, he spun around and came down on the guy's shoulder, splitting him all the sway to the bottom rib it seemed. Awesome fight scene I think.
FB
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 22:55:12 GMT
There is one school of fencing from Eastern Europe (mostly Poland) that developed dismounted saber combat:
Despite some theatrical aspects of the videos, that school of thought is not to be underestimated: a professional ''sabersman'' even on foot is a formidable opponent.
special note: Big thanks Dave!
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Post by Freebooter on Jan 31, 2012 5:24:22 GMT
Neat! I have seen them before but always enjoy them. And yes, I have seen some videos of guys I would hate to have to fight on foot with a sabre. That Anthony Delongis on Cold Steel's "Fighting with the Sabre and Cutlass" DVD is amazing. He showed some neat moves in that DVD set.
FB
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