Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2007 23:58:12 GMT
I've been eyeing the $200 Wind katana from Musashi that's all the rage, but I looked around a bit and found the $500 model that's differentially hardened. I now have 2 questions:
1.) Would buying the more expensive version be worth it?
2.) What would be the disadvantages of having the differentially hardened blade as compared to the cheaper through hardened blade? I wouldn't be able to use it the same, right?
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on Aug 26, 2007 1:59:27 GMT
For anyone to make any kind of intelligent response much more ino is needed... the make, the models, your training, intended usage....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2007 2:17:53 GMT
Well, I really don't have any training, and I'm talking about the musashi wind swords. (sorry, I changed the thread name after finishing the post..stupid mistake...) I would probably use it for some cutting, as that's about all I could do.
What I'm really worried about is the edge being too hard to stay sharp very long, or a bad cut from a beginner (myself) warping o snapping the blade. How does the temper affect the durability? In general, I wonder what it is about the clay temper that makes it so great.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2007 2:38:59 GMT
Well, I really don't have any training, and I'm talking about the musashi wind swords. (sorry, I changed the thread name after finishing the post..stupid mistake...) I would probably use it for some cutting, as that's about all I could do. What I'm really worried about is the edge being too hard to stay sharp very long, or a bad cut from a beginner (myself) warping o snapping the blade. How does the temper affect the durability? In general, I wonder what it is about the clay temper that makes it so great. I dont have any experiance with musashi swords so I cant comment on their durability. The clay used on japanese and japanese styled swords actually has nothing to do with the temper but rather the process of differential hardening. The tempering of the blade comes after to relieve stresses from the hardening process. Of course this is just a basic explaination, and if you wish to know specifics I would suggest googling "differential hardening" and taking a look at this site: home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htmGood luck and welcome to the forum
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2007 3:02:52 GMT
I know that differential hardening and through hardening are different. Those are what I'm asking about. I apparently have my terminology wrong, so forgive me.
My worry stems from the review here on SGB. After Paul cuts through the neck of the coke bottle, he says that "in traditional hand forged swords like a katana, hard plastic like this can actually cause chipping..."
This is what I'm afraid of. If he'd had the $500 Wind katana, would the blade have been chipped because its blade is differentially hardened?
Can anyone provide any definitive answers about this? Should I risk buying the $500 model, or stick with the possibly more durable $200 model?
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on Aug 26, 2007 10:16:02 GMT
There are no definite answers to anything....
There are no absolute truths...
That said....
Differentially hardened blades are done that way so the edge will be sharper, and will hold that edge longer(harder steels sharpen better and stay sharper longer)
On a DH katana that is of the modern kotetsu geometry( wide thin blade) such as the PK elite, chipping is a good possibility with a martensitic edge....
The Japanese masters used a thing called hira-niku to reinforce the edge... some call it blade meat, or clamshell edge.
On cheaper swords, with no training, through hardened is probably best, just know that it is missing SO much of what makes a sword a katana... but so is the $500 one
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2007 12:34:56 GMT
I also have questions on the differences between differential hardening verses differential tempering. Could someone explain differential hardening verses differential tempering? Also, which produces a natural hamon?
We are talking about clay method applied to a mono steel blade here, not composite/laminated/folded steel.
It is my uneducated understanding that in most differentially hardened Katana the cutting edge is not necessarily any harder than on a through hardened blade. It is the opposite edge (mune, or non-cutting, if I have my terminology right) that is given a lower hardness. This gives the sword a resilience (ability to absorb shock?) it would not otherwise have.
If my understanding is in error I trust someone will state this correctly.
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on Aug 26, 2007 12:57:22 GMT
Differential hardening is accomplished in the quench. The clay causes the ha , and mune to quench at different rates. The ha ,quenched quickly, forms microcrystalline structures called martensite, that are dense and uniform, this makes the edge very hard.
The slower quenched body and spine form microcrystalline structures such as austentite or pearlite,(or in Howard Clarks L6 bainite) less hard, more supple ....
This is what a hamon is....
The ha IS harder on a diferentialy hardened blade. A through hardened blade is usually tempered to about 50 -52 rockwells, a DH edge is 60-62.
Martensitic steel will hold a sharper edge longer, but is brittle, the softer spine allows the sword to be more resilent while still having as keen an edge as possible.
Tempering is the process of bringing a hardened blade up to temp, and allowing a slow cooling... this draws back hardness.
It is my understanding a diff. tempering can result in a hamon of sorts as well, though it is not a technique assosiated with Japanese swords so I know very little about it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2007 12:57:47 GMT
There are no definite answers to anything.... There are no absolute truths... <snip> Except this one. If there are no absolute truths, then the statement "there are no absolute truths" cannot be absolutely true. Consequently, there must be some (or one) absolute truth, namely the statement "the are no absolute truths" But, if there are no absolute truths ... Norman, correlate! Back on topic. What is the virtue of a differentially hardened "spring steel" blade (the Cheness Kaze) vs. a more traditional DH steel? I've read that some users have had their Kaze's take a set following tameshigiri (oops), which was why many have gone to spring steel in the first place. I guess the key combo is a "through hardened" "spring steel" such as the Tenchi or Shura, if a newbie wants some protection against this due to inconsistent or poor technique. Then why not a 1060 through hardened blade such as he Cheness Mokko? Which is really more forgiving? (I've not seen a "test to destruction" yet on the Mokko, as there have been for the Shura.)
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on Aug 26, 2007 13:18:33 GMT
There are no definite answers to anything.... There are no absolute truths... <snip> Except this one. If there are no absolute truths, then the statement "there are no absolute truths" cannot be absolutely true. Consequently, there must be some (or one) absolute truth, namely the statement "the are no absolute truths" But, if there are no absolute truths ... Norman, correlate! Yes, my point exactly....even a statement about absolute truth canot be an absolute truth... we could say physics is an absolute truth... but there's that pesky mater of physics breaking down on the subatomic level (see unified theory partical physics) Nothing... Cheness is really just filing market niches, and people want an indestructabe super steel , which doesn't exist, thus the 9260...the introduction of silicon makes the steel more supple, but it also diffuses carbon....evrythings a tradeoff right... Then people want a supersteel and a natural hamon....thus the kaze... There is no supersteel, and there is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TECHNIQUE. What makes through hardened 9260 better than 1050, en45, 5160 etc? NOTHING. People wanting the closest thing to an indestructable katana need to spend 7-9000 on an HC L6.... Otherwise learn good technique or learn to settle for faux hamon.... When a DH sword bends on a bad cut, it is doing what it is designed to do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2007 15:10:46 GMT
Thanks Marc! Differential hardening is accomplished in the quench. The clay causes the ha , and mune to quench at different rates. The ha ,quenched quickly, forms microcrystalline structures called martensite, that are dense and uniform, this makes the edge very hard. Tempering is the process of bringing a hardened blade up to temp, and allowing a slow cooling... this draws back hardness. It is my understanding a diff. tempering can result in a hamon of sorts as well, though it is not a technique assosiated with Japanese swords so I know very little about it. The ha gets a thinner layer of clay so it both heats and quenches more quickly (than the mune) and becomes harder. This sounds like "differential tempering" CAUSES the differential hardening. Put another way, the clay is used to create the differential tempering (quenching/cooling at differnt rates) which results in the differential hardening. Or maybe I've got that terribly wrong? When lacking actual knowledge sometimes the internet is a great source, sometimes it is pure bs. I am not an expert, but I can Google! www.chenessinc.com/hamon.htmThe spine of the blade is cooled less rapidly due to the thick layer of clay around it and, thus, results in a softer steel. (said to be "shock absorbing"). For all intents and purpose, although it is during the hardening (quenching) process that the martensitic crystalline structure is formed, we'll refer to this overall clay-temper-quench process as "tempering". (Since you can temper (heat) a blade without hardening it, but you cannot harden (quench) a blade without first tempering it). From www.primosknives.com/articles/diffheat.htmWhat Is It?It goes by many names, there is differential tempering, differential hardening, selective tempering, selective hardening, zone treating, soft-back draw, and the list goes on and on it seems. By whatever name is used, it means that the blade has been heat treated to have a hard cutting edge and a softer "springy" spine. There are a few different ways to achieve this, so the term I use depends on the process I used. More on this later. How Is This Done?There is more than one way to get the hard cutting edge and tough, springy back. To cover the whole spectrum I say that my blades have been differentially heat treated. To be more specific as to the method used, I use one of the terms mentioned above. Some of the methods, as well as the terms I use to describe the methods are listed below. Differential HardeningThis is the term I use when the transition was performed at the hardening phase of heat treating. This would cover the edge quench, clay coating, and torch methods. It is not my intention to give a full course in heat treating, but here is a brief explanation of the three methods. Edge Quench - With this method, the whole blade is brought to critical temperature, then the cutting edge only is placed horizontally in the quench medium, and carefully rocked upward toward the tip of the blade. The steel exposed above the quench line will cool more slowly and therefore reach a lesser degree of hardness. Clay Coating - First the back of the blade is coated with clay or refractory cement. The blade is then brought up to critical temperature and placed in the quench medium. The portion of the blade which is coated will cool more slowly and reach a lesser degree of hardness. Torch - The cutting edge is quickly brought to critical temperature with a torch and then placed in the quench medium. This method is usually only used on smaller blades because it is difficult to evenly achieve the proper temperature on the full length of a large blade. Differential TemperingThis is the term I use when the transition was performed at the tempering phase of heat treating. That is, the blade is fully hardened, then tempered, and finally the spine is drawn back with a torch. This is often done with the cutting edge placed in a tray of cold water. The depth of the water is usually set from 1/3 to 1/2 the overall width of the blade. The spine is carefully drawn back with a "painting" action of the torch on the spine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2007 14:57:39 GMT
go with a chenness tenchi and forget your worries it will cut through mostly whatever you want to put it through and you wont have to worrie about bending or chipping from a differential tempered blade if you have a bad cut
|
|
|
Post by Matt993f.o.d on Aug 30, 2007 16:19:32 GMT
I would get the more beaterish one, if you are inexperienced. 'Beater' Japanese swords tend to be more forgiving in the hands of the inexperienced. I put this down to them being heavier and more chopperish.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2007 17:50:07 GMT
go with a chenness tenchi and forget your worries it will cut through mostly whatever you want to put it through and you wont have to worrie about bending or chipping from a differential tempered blade if you have a bad cut Sorry but that is just not true, any sword including a differntialy hardened blade, can bend or chip from a bad cut or inproper targets.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2007 19:40:48 GMT
I would get the more beaterish one, if you are inexperienced. 'Beater' Japanese swords tend to be more forgiving in the hands of the inexperienced. I put this down to them being heavier and more chopperish. This is the best answer I've gotten so far. Thank you. Basically, what I've heard is that DH katana are more fragile. If this is so, then why would you want it over something that is more durable, cheap, and will do the same job?
|
|
|
Post by jw on Aug 30, 2007 20:10:30 GMT
If this is so, then why would you want it over something that is more durable, cheap, and will do the same job? Because it has a real hamon and is closer to a katana than a hard piece of steel shaped like a sword. Not harshing on Cheness, I own 3, the DH 9260 blade is beautiful, I look at the hamon and think awesome! My Tenchi just isn't the same although it is awesome... To me the hamon is what sets Japanese blades from the rest of the bunch. The technology and history behind the intimate knowledge of metal that has been passed down through the generations to suit combat conditions. So I would ask, is a katana a katana without a hamon??? On a practical level the DH blade will have and hold a sharper edge than a TH blade. The hard edge retains the sharpness where a softer edge will lose the sharpness as the metal wears. JW
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2007 20:44:22 GMT
Ok, that's the sort of explanation that I was looking for. When I saw the real hamon on the more expensive sword, it practically sold me, but I need to be mindful of my wallet. Also, the sword shouldn't be getting too much of a workout, so I'm not too worried about the blade being able to stay super sharp.
|
|
|
Post by jw on Aug 30, 2007 20:47:19 GMT
The hamon is where the magic is!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2007 22:21:39 GMT
if you do get a dh sowrd you mignt want to go with the cheness kaze, its had good reviews and as dh swords go its arguably one of the toughest, also due to the price if it does get damaged its not like you lost $500 or $1000
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2007 1:26:40 GMT
Ah, but the Musashi is so much prettier, which is what really attracted me to it. I love the copper fittings. Anyway, I've got my answer, and I'm going for the $200 Musashi Wind katana. I won't have it for a while, but thanks for all your help.
|
|