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Post by isotop235 on Dec 4, 2011 7:52:51 GMT
I just added a new sword to my "movie" collection-the Samurai styled sword from "Highlander." I bought the apparently limited edition Damascus steel version. The blade is very dullish in colour and has these imperfections on the surface that resemble fingerprints(this is best how to describe them). Any information on Damascus steel would be appreciated. The maker is United Cutlery.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 4, 2011 8:10:52 GMT
What many vendors are passing off as "Damascus" steel is folded/forge welded steel, which mimics Damascus, but is different. Forge-welded, also called folded or pattern-welded steel has been hammered and folded about a dozen or so times. In antiquity this was done to remove imperfections in the steel, as well as add and evenly distribute carbon. This resulted in a very high quality steel from relatively low-quality iron. It is no longer needed as the steel used today is already very pure and high in quality. When this process is used, the steel displays the folds after polishing. The end result is the wavy lines, called Hada, you see. You can also achieve this look by use of etching. As I understand it, true Damascus steel is lost to us. Anyone who could make it truly are long, long dead and no "recipe" has been found to fill the void. The closest I think you can get to it today is Wootz steel, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz
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jhart06
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Slowly coming back from the depths...
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Post by jhart06 on Dec 4, 2011 13:21:42 GMT
A note.. Forge welding and folding are not even close to the same thing. Forge welding involves layering and folding various types of steel, thus (via hammering at various temps) 'welding' the steels into a coherent whole. Folding is just folding the billet in on itself multiple times, originally to help remove impurities, it's mostly cosmetic today as is forge-welding due to availability of good steel. Both are similar, but the activity/patterns in the steel often vary greatly in typical looks,.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 4, 2011 23:15:51 GMT
Thanks for the clearing up there, jhart. I'd sometimes wondered why there were so many names for the same thing, so your post clears that up.
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Post by MuerteBlack on Dec 4, 2011 23:17:24 GMT
Indeed. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that the folding performed by Japanese smiths and pattern welding are two different techniques that utilize forge welding. The Japanese would forge weld a single billet of steel in on itself multiple times. Performed with two billets selected from different parts of a bloom of tamahagane, one bar would yield a fairly homogeneous medium to high carbon steel (for the edge), while the other would yield either low carbon steel or wrought iron (for the body). More complex lamination styles would result in even more bars of steel of varying carbon content that could be forge welded onto each other to make more complex structures in the blade's cross-section.
Pattern welded steel was utilized by the Celts, Anglo-Saxons and other European "viking-age" cultures. Steel was selected from a bloom very similar to tamahagane and separated into high and low carbon contents. Many thin strips of high and low carbon steel were forge welded together into a billet. The billet was then drawn out into a bar and twisted many times. Thanks to carbon migration, the bar then became a homogeneous bar of medium to high carbon steel that could be finished into a sword blank.
"Damascus" used to be an incorrect term used by some Europeans to refer to wootz steel, which was a crucible steel made primarily in India that started out as a completely molten mixture of iron and whatever other ingredients the metallurgists wanted to add. The crucible was then cooled and the mixture solidified into a solid ingot that could be directly drawn out and forged into a sword blank. This type of steel also exhibits a distinctive skin pattern, but this is not a result of folding. No one knows how to make a completely accurate replica of Wootz steel anymore; although some smiths and metallurgists are making progress in rediscovering it.
However, when used in modern day knifemaking, "Damascus" steel is usually a bastardization of pattern welded steel and folded steel. A smith usually takes two bars of two kinds of steel (1045/1095, 1095/L6 or somesuch) and forge welds them together and then folds the bigger ingot several times. Many cheaper production katana are made with this method as a quick and easy way to give the surface of the blade (after a quick acid etch) a visible skin pattern. However, in my opinion, this pattern is way too loud when compared to either type of traditional swords (European or Japanese) and could be referred to more as "swirlies" rather than true jihada.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 4, 2011 23:24:01 GMT
I agree 100% I prefer a nice, subtle hada like that found on higher end blades and traditionally made Nihonto. The loud, obnoxious patterns found on most blades in the lower end brackets are a bit much for me.
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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 4, 2011 23:34:03 GMT
Friend,
You just bought yourself a wall-hanger, a non-functional sword. There are more than one definition for "damascus" depends on context. In the context of "United Cutlery," it means pattern welded steel. Two types of steel are welded together in a steel billet to create a pattern of dark and light. Steel with high manganese content will be dark, steel with nickel content will be light. In modern time, it is done purely for visual affect.
In the case of "United Cutlery," it is useless visual affect since the sword is non-functional. If are into the movie and simply want to have a sword in the movie to display, that is fine. But nothing good ever come from "United Cutlery."
I don't trust "damascus" unless it is done by a reputable smith and I know what is the combination of the two steels. Some steels work well together because they have similar heat treat regiment. Some steels are not meant to be welded together because their heat treat regiment are different, leading to de-lamination. Furthermore, it takes considerable skill to perform pattern welding. Otherwise, there will be flaw in the steel billet.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Dec 4, 2011 23:41:22 GMT
A lot of the problem with saying what Damascus steel is that not everyone agrees on the definition. In the strictest sense, it was steel that was made from iron from a very specific deposit in India, near Damascus, hence the name. That deposit had very specific impurities that made the steel better and helped produce the distinctive water pattern. Off the top of my head I believe some of them were Molybdenum, Vanadium, Chromium and a couple others I can't remember right now. Additionally the steel was cooled in high carbon content clay containers if I remember correctly which added to their carbon content. Lastly, smiths would always include a piece of previously made Damascus steel in the mix as they did not know the exact impurities that gave the steel its properties. True Damascus steel cannot be made today as the deposit it was created from has long since been mined out and the exact process smiths used has been lost.
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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 4, 2011 23:48:04 GMT
If you want to be strict about definition, historical steel from Central Asia is not "damascus." It is wootz. Because it did not originate from Damascus, Syria. The distance between Damascus, Syria and Central Asia is thousand of miles. It was called damascus for the longest time because in the west, that is where Western traders can buy the steel. It refers to the trading center not where the steel originate from.
It is like calling Wisconsin cheese "New York cheese" because you buy the cheese in New York.
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jhart06
Member
Slowly coming back from the depths...
Posts: 3,292
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Post by jhart06 on Dec 5, 2011 1:04:58 GMT
We've answered the OP's question, lets not start a debate on the nature of damascus here. Though i'm interested to hear the various theories and ideas some of us have, since we truly dont know the whole truth, and likely never will.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Dec 5, 2011 1:11:26 GMT
I should note that United Cutlery *does* make a few functional katana. Most of their pieces are SLO's, true, but they're starting to catch on to the notion that there are customers out there who want real, functional swords, and have started taking steps in that direction. I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the OP's sword as a wall-hanger without knowing more about it...
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Post by 14thforsaken on Dec 5, 2011 1:35:44 GMT
I over simplified a bit, IIRC the steel was made in India from that specific deposit and then forged and sold in Damascus. It was all basically part of the Persian empire.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Dec 5, 2011 1:39:31 GMT
Basically, the only functional line united cutlery has is their United Black line. There was a thread a while back about whether or not the highlander swords from united were functional. A united represented was quoted as saying that they were functional as long as you didn't swing them by the end of the handle as it might snap. Personally to me if I have to worry about how I grip it when I swing it to avoid a helicopter of death scenario, that makes it non-functional.
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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 5, 2011 1:54:19 GMT
Returning to the OP question, United Cutlery definition of "functional" is not the same as mine. Based on what 14thforsaken said, it is not functional. There is an economic reason why UC doesn't make functional weapons. Most of the people who buy UC swords are people who buy them because they watched this or that movie. They are movies fans, not sword collectors.
In fact, we swords collectors are a very small minority or very niche market -- not worth paying attention to or marketing to (by larger firm). There are far more money to be made in the non-functional movie wall hangers. This is especially true for UC since they often have the exclusive license to product a certain swords for the movies.
If we swords collectors were the primary market, most the swords in movie would look very different. The "Highlander" sword would look more like a real sword. Being a sword collectors destroy my movie watching experience.
PS: My guess it that the material of the handle is faux ivory. The material is known to be brittle.
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Post by 14thforsaken on Dec 5, 2011 2:26:21 GMT
If I'm not mistaken, the prop sword used in the film actually had the dragon head break off during use. There is definitely a design flaw with the sword. If you want a functional version of the movie sword, the way to go is the Global Gear G series version of the sword. the only problem is it will run you $500 or so. I have it and it is a very well implemented version of the sword. I believe that Paul did a review of the sword that can be found off of the main SBG site.
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Post by isotop235 on Dec 5, 2011 3:44:04 GMT
I would like to address the "wallhanger" comment. I have owned two in my lifetime, one I purchased when I was a teenager. This came from Toledo Spain and bent at the hilt/blade meeting on 1st use. The second was brought back from Japan by my father after a stint in the Army...a stainless steel Katana, sturdy enough-but as dull as a Thomas Hardy novel. As for UC sword, I have been cutting most things I can get my hands on this week, and this "wall hanger" is sharp and is doing an impressive job. It seems sturdy so far, no loose bits falling off and such. I know this is a fantasy sword of make believe, but I enjoy film and now I enjoy my film sword collection. I am not an elitist in anything nor do I yearn to become one. I spend more on whisky and women chasing in one evening than I did on this sword, I implore you leave me to enjoy it sir. To those who took the time to leave informative comments "I salute you!"
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 5, 2011 3:50:20 GMT
I don't think that Student meant to offend. Sometimes things come across more bluntly/offensively than they were meant to. There are a few elitists here, to be sure, but I don't think that Student is one.
I am also happy to hear that your sword is holding up well, and it is serving you well. It's always nice to get something that performs better than it would be expected to.
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Post by isotop235 on Dec 5, 2011 3:55:27 GMT
I felt the need to address and defend my acquisition, which I am pleased with, in any case.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 5, 2011 3:59:13 GMT
Totally. Wouldn't be much of an enthusiast if you weren't proud of your pieces. I didn't mean that as an admonishment, just trying to help clear it up.
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Post by isotop235 on Dec 5, 2011 4:02:32 GMT
Rather elite niche he has placed himself in...for a non-elitist...lol.
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