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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 8, 2011 22:26:58 GMT
That was another issue I had with them, gorgeous as they are. They were listed as being made of 50x14 steel; I had to Google that originally to find out it meant stainless. Granted, there are functional swords made from stainless steel, but they're very, very expensive and I wouldn't trust them. They're still quite beautiful, though.
So just the blade weighs 11oz, which means the whole thing could probably weigh up to a pound or so given all the silver often used on the hilt. But that's funny how you found that out; I've done something similar with Japanese, though I can't recall a specific example, what with having just woken up about 5 minutes ago.
Everything works out quite well, then. Which is good, because the edge-up orientation has several bonuses to my mind; #1 being that it preserves the edge a little more than the edge down, like with regular sabers and #2 being that it allows for the left handed draw cut without changing your grip afterwards (if it were edge down like with most sabers and you tried to draw it left handed, you'd have to grip it in a reverse grip to draw).
Odd. I've never seen a rain guard that only goes halfway past the grip before. The ones I've found through Google Images (including many antiques) either feature the hilt almost fully covered except for the ears or not covered at all like a regular sword. Though, now that I think on it, you brought up an interesting reason why they have the rain guard in your last post; they weren't purpose built weapons at first. Ive seen dozens of styles of knife (the seax and the kyber/kard to name two prominent ones) where the hilts are partially covered by the sheaths. Perhaps it's a throwback to the days when it was just a utility blade?
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 8, 2011 22:55:54 GMT
I'll give you (1), but on a case by case basis, since not all spins are slow. As for (2), frankly, I think that only applies if you don't do it right; you can keep your eyes on your opponent for all but 1/10th of a second by leaving your head towards them while your body turns. Or turning your head as far as you can as you go into the spin. The latter method, as well as a fast spin, is demonstrated at the end of the video below:
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 9, 2011 1:42:13 GMT
Vincent:
You've caught me out, dude. Your posts focusing on the actual use of the shashka have forced me to look things over, and rethink things.
I have been guilty of the most American of sins: I have been focusing on the artifact, not the art. I have been focusing on toys, not tactics. I have been so busy working on this sword----or thinking about working on it, which is almost the same thing----that I neglected the "training and doctrine" elements.
That 34" blade is too long for me to comfortably do any kind of reverse draw, and a regular "iaido-lite" right handed draw from a sashed scabbard also makes me over-extend a little. I may need to take 2-3" off the end.
Hey, it worked just fine as a regular plain ol' saber!
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 9, 2011 2:05:29 GMT
Don't worry too much about it, we've all done the same at one point or another. I started looking as deeply into the art of the shashka as I could find because the style of the sword intrigued me (I've got such a weakness for curvy one-handers) that I couldn't help but wonder how it was used. Anyways, a 34" blade would work if it were hung from the belt at the proper distance. For a blade of 29" to clear the body with a left handed draw, the scabbard mouth would only need to hang below the belt a mere 2". Now look at how low most sabers/shashka were carried:  If he were to stand, because of how it is hung, the mouth of his scabbard would probably hang a good 4-5" below his belt, perhaps further. There's also the various pictures in Dave Kelly's reviews wherein the end of the saber's scabbard is about an inch off the ground (shown below); and most sabers had 32-36" blades.  So really, as long as it hangs far enough down, a 34" blade is fine, but if you'd like to take a few inches off and perhaps lighten it, making it a bit faster, that'd work, too. |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 9, 2011 6:04:03 GMT
Well yes, but . . . .
I grant everything you say, and concede its reasonableness. However, I'm not sure if this is a place for me to be reasonable. I could, with a straight face and a clean conscience, rig up the shashka in either a regular cavalry or "tachi-esque" inverted manner, finish up the remaining bits and be happy.
However, to be true to my vision----by the way, I am aware of how pompous it sounds to say something like "to be true to my vision." But to be true to my vision, I think I need to go for an earlier, purer form of the shashka, and that might mean "edge up, in the sash."
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 9, 2011 6:19:04 GMT
I didn't realize that the shashka was ever worn in the sash; I thought it was carried edge up hanging from a belt throughout its usage in history. Hmm. In that case, then it would need to be shorter to pull off the left handed draw if you wanted to be able to.
As for sounding pompous, frankly, there's nothing pompous about wanting something to be how you envisioned it. It's for that very same reason that I have been working on my first novel for 8 years and have yet to finish.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 9, 2011 6:25:52 GMT
Dude, I'm so "almost pompous" that they called me Charles Emerson Winchester III in high school.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 9, 2011 10:06:14 GMT
Still doesn't matter, far as I'm concerned. What you want to do is what you want to do. No two ways about it.
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Post by MrAcheson on Jun 9, 2011 14:23:13 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dave Kelly is carrying that saber as a mounted soldier would on horseback using the drop strap, not as a dismounted soldier. If you look at picture of a civil war era sword belt like on this page, you'll notice what is basically an s-hook directly below where the shoulder strap connects to the belt. When dismounted the upper saber ring is hung from that location and the leather drop strap Dave Kelly has connect to the upper ring actually hangs loose against his leg. When worn using the dismounted hook the sword is going to ride significantly higher with the scabbard throat at approximately belt height or perhaps even slightly above it. |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 9, 2011 14:37:34 GMT
Fascinating, MrAcheson
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 9, 2011 19:02:55 GMT
Odyssey, huh?
Funny how I used that title. I guess odyssey has lost most of its original meaning, it's just come to mean journey. Sometimes, in modern parlance, we forget the real story. (Cue Paul Harvey.) The original odyssey, the Odyssey, it sucked. It was a right proper adventure----and remember, a right proper adventure is someone far away from us going through hell to accomplish something. I wonder how many times, along that long strange trip, Odysseus thought, "OK, man, I've got it now. Just over the crest of that next hill . . . . "?
All my plans are thrown into kerfluffle and tailspin. I find myself on the verge of rethinking the entire project.
No hill, as they say, for a climber.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jun 9, 2011 20:57:30 GMT
Dude, hang in there! I want to see you work this out. This has been cool and I want to see you push it and make it awesome... No pressure  Seriously though, keep on it... |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 10, 2011 4:01:29 GMT
Oh, I'm not giving up! I remain convinced of two things: I'm going to finish building this saber, and I'm going to build a shashka. I've simply been pondering whether these should be one project, or two. The blade length, at nearly 35", is simply too long for me to do the right or left handed draw the Circassians demonstrated. That same length, I suspect, would be overlong for me in other shashkaesque drills.
The question I'm considering is whether I should shorten this saber to a more convenient length, or abandon the plans to make this saber a shashka, and set it back up as the "fiddlestick Armenian" style of saber I mentioned in my first post. (I had originally set it up with a straighter grip, the cross guard from a VA 303S, and the recycled pommel it wore from the factory. And set up like that, it was very quick and pleasant as well.)
However, that would require doing up another shashka. (I will have a shashka, when all is said and done, with a grip I made and a leather wrap I wrapped and a scabbard I stitched together---no matter how long it takes!) Windlass is pretty much where I look when I go looking for sabers, though, and their "thin stock" sabers tend to run to 33-36". Me? I'm mostly comfortable with swords that have blades right about 30". That seems to fit me---both the arming sword and the basket hilt have 30-31" blades.
The more I sit and ponder on it, the more it seems to me that I can bob this blade by about 3" without making the tip look too odd, and I think that might be the way to go. Of course, then I need to think about what flavor of point I ought to go with.
I am trying to make this a benchmark sword for me. With my limited skills, my limited tools, and my limited experience, the end result is going to be pretty crude---but I want it to be as good as those skills, tools and experience can get me. (Then I can get cracking on doing a better one.)
I'm actually looking forward to the grip treatment. There's a touch of evening up to be done, and then the wrap. Hey, if I've torn off grips I can rip off wraps until it turns out halfway passable. I've got an idea for the overall treatment that should look good and have a historical basis, but I'm going to keep that one under my hat until I see how it turns out.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 10, 2011 4:18:44 GMT
KC, as to the tip, I've only seen two used on shashka; a regular knife style blade or a drop point which seems common on sabers. For me, I'd go with the former since it looks so much nicer to me (I never could get to liking a drop/spear point on a curved blade), but it's up to you which looks best, since I can't imagine it'd affect performance too much.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 10, 2011 4:38:11 GMT
Hacksaw? Dremel? Please, no one say files. I'll have forearms like Popeye.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jun 10, 2011 4:45:26 GMT
Only if you eat your spinach and suck on a corncob pipe 24/7.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 10, 2011 4:52:47 GMT
MMMMMM. SPANIKOPITA!
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 10, 2011 14:22:55 GMT
OK, this isn't just a place holder while I work up the nerve to cut on the blade. I wanted to show some more of the very flexible and active style associated with the shashka. Hey, yeah, I know, this is a drill, form, kata, dance, whatever, but it does call for a supple wrist.
Side observation: I've never seen a "civilian" shashka with a sword knot. "Civilian" meaning non Imperial or Red Army issue, I mean.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 11, 2011 4:03:24 GMT
Updates but no pics. I'm just not a "work in progress pics" kind of guy, at least not yet.
I sat and looked and looked and sat, and finally in blue Sharpie marked out the line where I wanted to bob the blade, taking off just a hair over 3". I started on the false edge with a file, and milled enough of a channel----a groove, really----for my hacksaw to get a running start. Note to self: you need a hacksaw longer than 10". It took a while, but it got done.
With the blade squared off at just under 32", I took files to the tip to reprofile it. With the same blue Sharpie I sketched out the profile I wanted---which ended up looking surprisingly "katana like" so I amended it a little. I'm pretty happy with the shape but as I thin and then sharpen the tip it may change yet again.
The 3" bob makes a world of difference coming out of the scabbard, and some difference in the hand. I'll have a fresh weight and POB in the next update, with pictures.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 16, 2011 12:52:03 GMT
You know, back when I was a kid, I thought the Detonics Combat Master was just the coolest thing ever. The Detonics was a cut-down 1911 .45 ACP, with a 3.5" barrel vice the 5" barrel of the original, and a correspondingly shorter grip. I didn't understand that there was a WHOLE LOT OF ENGINEERING going on to make the now-shorter slide and the now-shorter barrel have enough running room to feed, chamber, fire and extract. The word I got from people who actually bought and shot short .45s was that they were finicky.
Wait, you may say, this isn't the "other weapons" forum or the "firearms" subforum so what is this loquacious foghorn leghorn talking about?
If you've got a nice flexible saber, with a blade, oh, say about 33 5/8" long, and you cut three inches off the tip end of the blade, you don't end up with an identically nice and flexible saber that's 30 5/8" long: you end up with a nice saber that's stiffer than it was before you bobbed it.
I found that out when I was on a road trip to Houston, in the evenings I would bust out the saber and fiddle with it. I reprofiled the blade tip, and that's when I noticed the stiffness. Well, in for a penny, as they say, in for a pound.
I think that if I thin out the back edge of the blade I can reintroduce the flexibility to the design. Here's the deal. The Windlass American Revolutionary War saber has two fullers: one broad and shallow and the other narrow and deep. The narrow/deep fuller runs along the back edge.
I've been working on sharpening and dulling the blade. That is, I sharpen the half closest to the tip, and dull the half closest to the grip. It occured to me that I could round the back edge of the blade down to the line where sharp becomes dull. The rounding, and then the transition to a square back edge, would serve as a visual indicator of the sharp/dull line. Then I can thin the width of the back edge near the tip until I restore suitable whippiness/flexibility.
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Seriously though, keep on it...
