Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 1, 2011 21:24:36 GMT
There is obviously quite a large interest on this forum in the area of training in JSA. That doesn't just mean Iaido or Kenjutsu. Kendo and the ever popular ninjutsu are included as well in this. Now I know a lot of you have given the argument you're just backyard cutters or enthusiasts and despite the fact that your sword of choice is a katana you are not practicing JSA... that's all fine and dandy. The fact is - if you use a katana or a European long sword and that's it you're right. You're just cutting and that's fine. The moment you don the traditional training uniform of a particular style or start using terminology from that style you are in fact trying to emulate it and thus trying to train in it. If you look at my posts in other topics I refrain from using terminology from JSA or WMA unless we are referring directly to that particular technique. I always try to use generic terms like "high guard" which most styles have a high guard and it is fairly similar in most styles of swordsmanship and "downward cut" etc. There are a couple of reasons for this - one it doesn't single out any one style and two it makes it easier for newbies to understand. Imagine having to learn a whole new language just to understand a post about swordsmanship... well I do think I'm going to have to learn German though to fully understand what all of you WMA people type sometimes. Seriously though if you start using style specific terminology to describe your actions you are emulating it and are trying to train in it. If you wear the gear you are doing so again. Ok with that out of the way I'd like to take it upon myself to put up some videos regarding some JSA - I chose to specifically address JSA because well frankly I just don't know that much at all about WMA or CSA or KSA or any other sword art for that matter. These videos show a few things that I'd like neophyte sword enthusiasts to take note of: 1. The crispness and cleanliness of the movements of those shown in the videos. 2. The execution of the techniques and the benefits of studying with fellow students. 3. The importance of the presence of a teacher who can help point out minor flaws in your form and/or technique to make you a better swordsman. 4. This is very important - the differences between someone who has studied a JSA to the point of proficiency and someone who just said they'd studied and claims to be proficient or even a master. I won't point out any specific times in the videos - just watch closely and see for yourself. First the videos of the real thing: The previous videos are of Kuroda sensei teaching class. Note his clean and efficient movements and how much effort he puts into teaching his students. There are other videos available but I think these three illustrate well enough my points. I also chose NOT to include cutting videos as tameshigiri is not as large a component of JSA as it is popularly thought to be. Now the videos of others: That last video probably made some of you mad - I apologize if you feel insulted however I didn't make that video and sadly after having watched a bunch of videos of the Bujinkan Sakki test I'd have to say it rings pretty correct. Now I'll leave it up to you to determine what these videos (and many others out there) mean to you. Personally it says to me there are a lot of frauds out there waiting to take the money of people who have more zeal and money than good judgement. Please don't be one of said people.
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Post by Cold Napalm on Feb 1, 2011 21:44:40 GMT
Just a note, TPRoach never claims to be able to use a sword for combat. He is a chorographer and as such just cares about looking cool...which is fine as he is upfront about what he is doing.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 1, 2011 23:21:09 GMT
That is quite true. The reason I included a video of his was he claimed to study traditional japanese sword however aside from the fact that he uses a katana there is nothing to support this. On his vids are comments from people asking him how to use katana too - and he advocates the use of a live blade (as in sharp steel) to do this. I think that should be raising red flags all over in your neighborhood shouldn't it Napalm? Anyway after reading his posts on his own channel and his videos (responses to comments and description of vids) it makes me believe that he actually thinks of himself as an authority on JSA althouth he doesn't state which one. That's my issue with him - otherwise I don't have a problem with people who twirl sword-like objects to look cool.
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Post by bloodwraith on Feb 2, 2011 0:09:05 GMT
Actually Roach did claim that he was doing sword based martial arts, I believe he said that he was doing a korean art and that is why he bought one of the swords he did. Seriously though he should just take up fire or baton twirling, he'd be really good at it with the moves he has. As a martial artist though, eesh! He's got this idea that swordsmanship requires brute power and choking up on the handle like he is playing baseball. Tactical samurai has no idea what he is doing and thinks spinning around and pretending to know what he is doing constitutes ability. You can see he is terrified of the sword he has in his hand from how gingerly he moves. There is no practical application in either of their videos and there is so much wasted movement and holes in their defenses I'd be surprised if they lasted ten seconds in a sparring match.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 2, 2011 0:18:01 GMT
Fire twirlers - always scared the bejeezus out of me at the thought of trying to do it myself. lol. I always thought that looked too cool - especially the guys who do fire swords! I'd never do it myself though - probably end up burning off all my hair and then some... :shock:
Instead I'll stick with swinging a sharp sword. lol
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Post by Cold Napalm on Feb 2, 2011 1:20:09 GMT
Well he seems to have changed his stance since I talked with him on his channel like 2 years ago. Back then he did mention he took martial arts but he was pretty clear that the twirling he was doing was purely chorography with dull blades. I know a lot of the stage combat people really liked the stuff he put together...and as stage combat he is really good at it. I'm kinda said that he is commenting to try to change that.
A lot of the moves he does seems to be from gum sool won.
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Post by whitefeathers on Feb 2, 2011 4:54:26 GMT
Tactical samurai= thats ...out there...the constant tossing the sword in the air thing irritated me. Kuroda sensei= I love watching his iaido videos, he is amazing.
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Post by Student of Sword on Feb 2, 2011 5:06:39 GMT
This is Kuroda Sensei, reputed to be the fastest swordsman alive. There is absolutely no need to put Kuroda Sensei videos next to that joker to prove a point. The swordsmanship (if you can even call it swordsmanship) of the later videos are obviously so crappy that it prove a point on its own. Good swordsmanship should stands on its own merrit. Equally, bad swordsmanship should stand on its own demerit.
Kuroda Sensei, in term of skill and reputation, is not even in the same universe as the other people shown. Why disrespect him by comparing him with those people, even to show how bad they are?
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 2, 2011 16:14:44 GMT
I meant no disrespect toward Koruda sensei. I only meant to use him as the epitome of what skill and teaching should be in JSA. I respect him quite a lot.
On the flip side I used the worst I could find in a quick youtube search to depict the depths of which one might plunge into without taking the time and effort to seek proper instruction.
There are obviously lots of people and levels of skill between the highest and the lowest - and while I wish I could afford to be taught by Koruda sensei I can't. I'd be willing to say that is the case for many people. There is no reason we couldn't find competent teachers to train with though. I just want people to be aware of the fact that just because people are on youtube and they get lots of comments/friends/subscriptions doesn't mean they are authorities on JSA.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 9:20:06 GMT
No disrespect to any Koruda sensei fans, but there is a lack of basic combative skill use in his videos. Like most sword styles that focus on "Art" the stuff looks great and since most people wont use sword in most fights it is not very important that allot of the moves would not be safe or practical for a user that is not a master like Koruda Sensei. Allot of his moves in the first video are great moves in theory, but he is moving into his opponents sphere of influence. In that fancy Gyaku cut he kept showing was a simple transitional move, but every time he would have a mid section cut the other guy still had a clear angle to Koruda Sensei's head. The moves he shows are making to many predictions on what the opponent will do rather than react to what is actually happening. He is doing more than he has to and allot of his cuts are not generating allot of cutting power. His moves are efficient in that they would do okay considering he is just using his natural moves to cut with, but I would bet on a wounded opponent still being able to kill him because he is right in the sphere of influence. He does not get in and get out. His form fallows the one stoke kill myth that assumes that his opponent will not still have the ability to strike him even with a mortal wound.... In sparring you find out fast that huge casting kesa giri cuts are very hard to pull off because they have allot of distance to cover. I mostly only do huge overhead kesa cuts when I am taking a backward transitional step. That is because I can create distance and use the casting leverage of the sword to lengthen my sphere of influence while moving out of his. Same rule applies in boxing where you pump the jab and jab out of range. It helps allot since in Koruda's moves allot of the damage comes from him expecting his counter moves to catch your force coming in rather than moving away. Also learning how to start a sword cast with less distance is something that is a main focus of Gekken or Chanbara. Because in sparring an actual opponent who is trying to hurt you you learn that the less you can present to an opponent the better. You also learn that there is almost never a time when you are in the sphere of influence that you wont get cut even after you cut your opponent.... Doing your best to stay out of range and still be effective is a safer bet than going into the kill zone and making a huge wide stance cut where it will be near impossible for you to get cut yourself. A simple concept and one of the first things I learned after basic happo giri and basic footwork. Notice that it is a simple thing that can be picked up quickly and with time can forge skill, but it is still a basic concept that has many applications. It is not limited to a single situation. Another simple way of looking at things. It is easy to just not be in the sphere of influence of your opponent. It is a clear view to me when I see the "Art in Motion" of Koruda Sensei vs. the Basic combat applications of Goshindo that fallows many of the training methods of a Japanese military during WW2. There is a reason why The military came up with a simplistic form of sword use that had allot more basics, cutting and sparring and only 7 Kata. At a master level I am sure Koruda Sensei can show amazing combat in his style, but in the field I do not think students of his arts could have been safe, practical and effective in a few months time. If you want to learn a martial "art" you have to understand what you want from that art. This is because the concepts and ideas you get from the art may come to change everything about you and your state of mind. If you were to learn from James Williams, Koruda, Obata ex. You would come to think in the mindset of Nami Ryu, Koruda Ryu, and Shinkendo. To learn these arts you are adopting that state of mind and in a sense are limiting your ability to learn how to think and adapt as the situation calls for. In a fight the best chance you have is to know your basics so well that you can rework them on the fly to fit into the situation at hand. It is kinda like Dancing... Koruda's art is like Ballet. It is very specific and honed. It is a very skilled display, but will not fit into a vast array of venues. You will look very funny doing a ballet dance at a night club, or say a wedding in ballroom dancing. But if you know the basics of rhythm and how to read the moves of another and act accordingly you can pass yourself off as a decent dancer in most any place... I guess what I am trying to add to Sam's point is that you have to ask yourself if you want to learn an art that will serve value in carrying on a tradition? Or do you want to learn something that will allow you to because a stronger more rounded person who has the ability to process adapt and respond to things that may happen with an open mind.
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Post by Hyoujinsama on Feb 3, 2011 9:47:26 GMT
God, people...you can't judge an entire school system based on kata alone... All schools teach the basic cuts, parries, etc. That's not anything special. Learning the basics is...well...basic. It's like preschool. Kata are a completely different subject from training in the basic cuts. That's not going to make anyone into a good swordsman right off the bat.
You can't be a good swordsman by simply learning how to hit people, either.
Something that a lot of people with no formal background in these arts often do is call out all of the ways a person could still be killed in a particular kata. Sure. There will always be ways. All a kata is is a pre-determined set of motions designed to teach a person to move, stop, control and transition. It's not combat. The iai kata that demonstrate the "one stoke kill myth" are designed to show a single technique set. Not a battle. Also, how many kata only show one strike? If it's only one strike, I'd call it suburi.
Something else that people tend to forget is that there is NO attack that leaves you completely invulnerable to an attack by your opponent. Every motion will present an opening. The key is making it small enough and brief enough that the opponent cannot exploit it.
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Post by Student of Sword on Feb 3, 2011 16:16:23 GMT
Of course Ricky Arias is the first person in this forum to criticize Koruda Sensei. I am sure that Ricky is a master in his own right and more than qualified to criticize Koruda Sensei. Ricky, why don't you show us your cutting video again to see how good they are? Is there anything else you are not good at?
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 3, 2011 17:08:49 GMT
SoS - I'm sure there will be others on this forum who might criticize Koruda Sensei. The wisdom behind such actions is in itself easy to understand. I wouldn't directly insult Ricky - he has in the past put out some good information and good insight on JSA. Ricky is a student or at least a follower of Abbot sensei and his teaching methods are not exactly traditional. That's not to say what he teaches is junk - not at all actually. From what I've seen of his teachings it can be quite functional in a combat sense and as such should not be discarded as useless. Also from what little I've seen Abbot sensei focuses more on the combatitive aspect of JSA rather than kata and technique. My sensei had a good balance of both I think - in that I truly respect and value the benefits of kata (I still do them every day though I'm no longer training with him) and I also very highly value the benefits of sparring and being able to put the techniques one learns in kata to use.
As Hyoujinsama said there is no technique that renders you completely invulnerable to a counter. That is the way of martial arts - where there is an attack there is always a counter. My sensei had always told me that no matter what technique you use there is no such thing as an undefeatable technique. That is only found in anime. It really boils down to how well you've been trained, how well you yourself have trained and basically how good you are as an individual fighter. Some people are naturally adept at things like martial arts - and with proper training and experience they are those who could be great martial artists and fighters. Then there are those like myself who had to get intensive training and work my butt off only to be considered marginally proficient.
The point that Ricky is trying to make - that one must train to be well rounded and not just be grounded in any one aspect of martial arts - is correct. I would only add that one must be able to see through the common misconceptions of what martial arts means otherwise it is all too easy to get things skewed.
Ricky - regarding Koruda sensei; you have to take into consideration something I was taught a long time ago. Martial arts is not just one speed all the way though. You must learn to vary the speed of your techniques as well as your techniques to keep your opponent from being able to adjust to your fighting. The other reason is to maintain your stamina - if you are continually going full speed you tire more quickly than if you vary your fighting speeds. There are many other concepts to be learned about martial arts but I only chose to point out these for now. Seek tutelage from your sensei for more complete understanding. Oh yes most of these things can only be fully comprehended through practical application - ie. the more experience you have the more you will understand. I can see a ton of practical use in the things shown in Koruda sensei's teaching videos. The move you stated - where he cuts to the midsection and his head is exposed - is a perfectly good technique. The trick is that in actual combat you don't just stop there. You continue on by following proper footwork and put yourself outside of the opponent's cut that might follow. The other point is that unless you're superman you're going to have a hard time fighting with your core muscles severed. Power comes from the torso - abdomen and chest. Without that you slow down drastically and have little power to do much else. Get gutted as that cut would do to you and unless you're high on coke/crack etc. or are superhuman you will more likely than not fold. This is knowledge that has been gained through practical application (during the feudal years of Japan) and then passed on from master to student till now. A good teacher will teach you all these things - and more.
I strongly agree with Hyoujinsama - you cannot simply look at a particular style's kata and say that its ineffective. It is also true that you cannot look at individual techniques and say the style will not be effective. Any style and technique that has been proven to be ineffective has died off - ie. no longer exists in practice. It is a mistake that many people make - especially those who have either not had real instruction or little of it - or those who have little experience in martial arts. There are also those who might have real instruction and experience but have just been taught otherwise. In any case its erroneous to look at a style's individual kata or technique and then determine its value as a martial art - combative or otherwise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 20:54:07 GMT
Not a master buy far, but I know my basic combative moves well enough. My comment was more to the point that Koruda Sensei's moves would not be so effective when not being used by a master like himself. Art as it is shown often lacks simplicity. That was the focus of my comments.
You seem to have such an opinion, but have seen no video to indicate your skill or experience. A friend of mine actually trained at a study group of Koruda arts in Chicago. I have seen the sword moves first hand and sparred against him in Chanbara 3rd form. And my friend cliff was not to happy with the results. He kept getting his legs and feet cut from a distance.
I think you need to take a chill pill student. You are talking things to seriously.
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Post by Student of Sword on Feb 3, 2011 22:05:49 GMT
First of all, I am not a student of Koruda Sensei and have never studied his ryu. However, he is well respected among the community. Due to his statue and reputation, criticism of his system by someone of lesser statue if very bad form. My own sensei would not criticize Koruda Sensei. I find the arrogance and the lack of humility by some in here troubling. There is a whole lot of "my semprini is bigger than your" non-sense.
I am just a student, a novice at sword arts. You won't find my video because if I make one, it would not worth watching. But unlike some people here, I have enough self-awareness not claiming expert status. Did you see me having an opinion on Koruda Sensei's art? I did not because I am not qualified. You are not qualified either. I don't even have an opinion on the art that you are studying (which you also claim to be an expert). However, there are well known people in the community who have expressed opinions regarding you art. Those opinions are all over E-budo. I have no opinion on their opinions either.
Also all Japanese arts have the "ura" and the "omote" What we outsider see is the "omote" only, not the "ura". Even student of that art won't grasp the "ura" until much later on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2011 23:49:49 GMT
I would not claim to be an expert nor have I ever claimed to be an authority of JSA. I Have a proficient level of skill in sword combative basics. My comment was that at the novice level allot of moves shown in more "art" focused styles miss out on the benefits of combative sword via kendo, gekken or Chanbara. As amazing as Koruda Sensei is you have to wonder would be be quite as amazing against a experienced Gekken practitioner or an experienced Kendoka. How would he adapt wide stances and cuts. It is no secret that traditional martial arts and teaching methods have trouble adapting to actual combative needs. As much as I hate the UFC the original events often showed high level martial artists losing to average Joe in the ring. In Chanbara we often spar two and three on one, team battle is also a normal part of training. It's a whole different kind of technical part of training that is just flat out skipped over by allot of martial arts. And this is a current phenomenon not something that a samurai or a ninja ex. Would have skipped in training. I have seen the Soke of the shin shin seikiguchi ryu in person doing a demo. Along with the Mugai Ryu soke and the head of the all Japan Batto Federation. And all most demod was kata and tameshigiri. And that is what most people thought of as skill. But if you look at the bunkai of allot of gendai and koryu kata the moves seem very high risk. But students of those arts I have seen do Gekken alter their moves a bit. I guess my original point should have been more clear in saying Koruda Sensei would have different moves if he did Gekken or Chanbara. www.hksword.com/3_info/3_3_cutti ... ght_05.htm
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Post by Student of Sword on Feb 4, 2011 0:19:32 GMT
Ricky,
Nonsense. Koryu derived from combat experienced, often lethal duel. While it is true that many schools have lost much of their original essence and are left with pretty dance. The koryu as originally taught was proven at one point in history.
When was the last time anyone died in a sword duel in modern time? Until you have a real duel with real swords and someone die, it is not combat proven. Since it is impossible (because it is illegal) to prove it, all we have are the older stuffs. We don't even duel with wooden bokken anymore. Up until modern time, they even duel with blunt steel blade unarmored.
The comparision with UFC is silly. Many of the training are innovations based on old techniques. Some of them straight out old martial arts. The grappling are old school Jujitsu. The striking are old school Muay Thai. The only innovation is the combination of the two and the strength/endurance regiment (we have more medical knowledge than olden time). Even then, there are things that I was taught that would work but would not be allowed in UFC. How's about eyes gouching? I was taught that.
The analogy between unarmed combat and armed combat is a bad analogy. One you can test without killing people. The later, you cannot prove that it works until someone die.
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Feb 4, 2011 0:28:32 GMT
I understand the passion for martial arts, but please stay cool and polite folks, there's no need to get passionate in a bad way about this stuff here.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Feb 4, 2011 2:03:31 GMT
Ricky - your example of a friend of yours going to a workshop in Chicago which was about Koruda sensei's teachings and then being beaten is a bad example. I just wanted to point that out. It takes more than one, two, three even a dozen workshops to become proficient at any martial art. If you only attend workshops now and then what you learn is for the most part useless because you haven't been taught how to apply such techniques. It takes years - even decades - of dedicated study and practice to become a proficient martial artist.
While I agree that the practice of applying the techniques you learn is very important - thus sparring - you simply cannot learn everything in just a few sessions. Your friend wasn't beaten due to inferior technique - he was beaten by his own inexperience in the style. Unless I'm sadly mistaken about it your example of your friend is like saying I'd studied Isshin Ryu Karate for 10 yrs and I fought against Jet Li - and lost. Therefore by that example Isshin Ryu must be an inferior style.
Its not a real comparison at all. Btw Ricky - you study Chanbarra under Abbott sensei right? Are you a direct student of his (as in you get face time with him in person) or are you a member of his video school? Regardless of what the answer is, I've actually never had a chance to spar with someone who was a student of his and I'm very interested in doing so. If you get the opportunity to come to Wisconsin let me know and I'll be happy to give you a place to stay, food and drink (I hope you like asian food... because that's all I cook) and we can spar, cut and just talk martial arts for a bit. Sound good? Win or lose I just want the experience.
SoS - I completely understand your indignance at what Ricky had said however personal attacks are not the way to go about it. In any case at least behave lest you feel the wrath of the moderators. lol But seriously I understand why you're upset.
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Feb 4, 2011 2:42:45 GMT
What I said applies to everyone here, and anyone here who goes too far might warrant action from us, moderators.
Student, Ricky : Personnaly, I appreciate having both of your inputs on this forum, you both have much knowledge and common sense to bring to this forum, IMHO. However, I don't think it is doing anyone a favor to argue like this. At best, it gives others some entertaining internet drama. At worst, it creates and feeds ill feelings. This forum needs neither. I hope I have myself clear.
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