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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 7, 2010 2:52:39 GMT
Hi Larry,
I was thinking about your question but it is difficult to give a good answer. I am as frustrated as you are at the inability to quantify when it come to Japanese swords. I think we are not the only want unable to do so.
My current zinc iaito is a cheap one. It is so cheap that it does not even have real same on it. Nonetheless, it has far superior to Cheness in term of tsuka shape. It is not easy to quantify tsuka shape. How do you quantify ergonomic? It is not merely at that the handle is curved or waisted. It has to curve a certain way or waisted at a specific location on the handle.
All Japanese zinc-alloy iaito tsuka has good shape, similar to the Dotanuki's picture you posted. The only different between the a luxury ones and a economy one is the type of material on the fitting. My cheap zinc iaito has the same tsuka shape as the very expensive iaito belonging to my sensei. The price different between mine and his is more than a thousand dolllars. His has premium silk ito with top grade same. My has fake same and cotton ito. But the tsuka shape is the same.
No Chinese manufacturers will be able to do what the Japanese can. This is because company like Cheness make the iaito by hand. Despite all the advertising, all Japanese iaito are manufactured my machine. The only hand-made part is the tsukamaki. Since the Japanese blades are casted. They are all identical to each other in the same model. Their nakago are identical, therefore their tsuka are identical -- all machine made.
So you get a good tsuka shape whether you purchase a $250.00 zinc iaito or the $2,000 iaito.
PS: I would also recommended against Cheness iaito for long session of iai. It is very unbalanced and tip heavy. It is not heavy, weighting at 2.4 lbs. But it is far less balance than my other blades which are heavier. For instance, it is less balance than my DF Musha which weight about 2.7 lbs. I used the Cheness mainly for strength excercise to get used to tip heavy sword. I really don't get the Cheness defenders out there. If their iai sword is that unbalanced, I wonder what their other swords are like.
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Post by I Frammenti Di Fede on Dec 7, 2010 4:26:36 GMT
I agree with Student of Sword, from the deluxe cheness Iaito I held and used for a day I was very disappointed. I know people hate this, but I'd compare it to holding a bar of steel(crowbar like). The balance is just so far out of wack it's hard to describe it in any other way. You're much better off getting a different iaito to practice with then a cheness.
On another note has anyone tried the munetoshi iaitos?
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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 7, 2010 4:29:28 GMT
That is why I am keeping it. If I can do noto with the Cheness iaito; I can do noto with any katana.
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Post by I Frammenti Di Fede on Dec 7, 2010 4:36:23 GMT
Why bother, most swords you'll use for cutting are going to be much better balanced. Using a sword that badly balanced might cause you to over compensate for the weight so you really start to force or pull cuts. Not saying you're going to do that - it might lead to some problems... but I dunno i'm just thinking out loud.
You could always lift weights too.
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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 7, 2010 4:59:44 GMT
It is so cheap I might as well keep it as a teaching tool to others people who might be interested in swords. It would be a good illustration of balance in sword. BTW, I just weight my Munetoshi Enkai. It is 2.8 lbs, superbly balanced -- even more balanced than my DF at 2.7 lbs, and certainly far more balance than the Cheness at 2.4 lbs.
How's in the world can somebody manage to forge a sword of only 2.4 lbs to feel like a 5 lbs?
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Post by I Frammenti Di Fede on Dec 7, 2010 6:05:32 GMT
Dunno I can't figure how you'd get the P.O.B. off that far on a 2.4 lbs sword lol. We need a sword smith in here!
How do you like the Enkai SoS? How are the fittings and the blade can you notice the niku? I love the look of that sword, if I had the money I'd deff pick one up. Munetoshi has so many swords I'd buy if I had money sitting around.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2010 8:17:19 GMT
And here I was thinking I was going to wind up with a nice iaito for Christmas by going with the Cheness one... being a first-time buyer doesn't help. :/
This largely puts me in the same boat as the OP - what are some recommended low-price iaitos? I am willing to reach past the $300-odd mark if the blade in question will last me through hell and back. The steel used doesn't matter for me - I am an iaijutsuka, so I have a bit more free reign in that regard. If someone knowledgeable is willing to put the effort into making a giant list of various iaitos with a wall of text explaining each to match, I would appreciate that quite a lot (and I think other folks doing the same routine would too)!
As for the balance in the Cheness iaito, I would guess that it's due to the bo-hi extending deep into the tsuka, as mentioned on Cheness' website.
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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 7, 2010 8:38:36 GMT
Hawei Tori Iaito is exactly $300 @ Paulchenhanweiswords.com. Hanwei Pratical and Practical Plus Iaito are $155 and $198 respectively.
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Post by craigd on Dec 7, 2010 8:52:48 GMT
What about the Tori Iaito? (edit: dammit Student of Swords you just beat me to it ) Suede leather Ito, quality fittings etc. And a hair under $300 @ wiwingti or paulchenhanweiswords.com/tori-ia ... blade.aspx Sword was rated very highly, even higher than a Tozando: www.toyamaryu.org/KatanaIaito2006.htmIt also seems to be used by a highly regarded instructor: I am in the same dilemma as many of the people in this thread, looking at a decent, cost-effective Iaito. And I am torn between the Tori, a Gorin, a Tsuru (of which the higher end Tori comes in at almost the same price) and a Tozando Iaito. (I was shocked to see Suede leather ito adds almost $400 to the cost of the Tozando, more than the Tori which comes with it) (I love the Iaito gardehusar bought from ninecircles ( but again a bit too expensive for me at the moment). So many options, so difficult a decision. :?
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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 7, 2010 9:14:42 GMT
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Post by craigd on Dec 7, 2010 9:33:35 GMT
I don't know about the Toryumon as it doesn't say, but the handle length on the Masamune/Muramasa seems a bit on the short side @ 9 3/4" (25cm)?
My Tori Elite & Hanwei Musashi XL Light are both about 11" (28cm), 9 3/4" would be pushing it for me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2010 11:16:36 GMT
ok i dont mind the 302 tozando at all actually. plus you get a choice of tsuba and saya. which is kind of cool, even if the fittings arent fantastic. now i guess i have a few more ideas about what i would do to get a cool iaito cheap. here are my favorites so far
hanwei gorin- 250-279 at swordnarmory.com with free shipping(the fittings just do so much for it, and i really love all my hanwei blades even with axe handle tsuka.) tozando toryumon- 302 at tozando with free shipping(nice shape and a couple of options which is neat.)
i guess my next question is something i was pondering after we started this whole debate/conversation. are there any super low end iaito that are decent that i could just customize myself? I do have spare fittings laying around that i like quite a bit, all i would really need is a tsuba. so if there is something with great shape with super low end fittings that i could replace myself. i'd go that route too. or am i looking at munetoshi/hanwei pk as my only options in that price range(that are acceptable)?
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Post by craigd on Dec 7, 2010 12:34:59 GMT
I think if you are looking at the Gorin and like the Hanwei feel you I would definitely consider the Tori at $300, upgraded fittings and rated with a better balance. The Tsuru is also a serious contender as they are all very similarly priced. www.toyamaryu.org/KatanaIaito2006.htm rated the Tori > Tozando Higo > Tsuru > Gorin I am mainly torn between the Tozando and the Tori. I like the feel of my Tori Elite but... I _may_ prefer the Tozando, problem is I can't try one to find out.
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Post by whitefeathers on Dec 7, 2010 15:54:39 GMT
Frammenti, I have the $89 Munetoshi Iaito and unfortunately it feels the same as described for the Cheness. Tip Heavy and the balance is "off". I wouldn't liken it to feeling like swinging a crowbar-its not THAT bad but still... After swinging it around for awhile and then picking up any other of my swords there is a big difference in balance feel. they say its 2.2 lbs but it sometimes feels heavier than that. What I do like about it is the nice small tsuka. Great for my short fingers. I'm not a fan of big Hanwei tsukas so that takes the Hanwei iaitos out of the pool for me. I was told to steer away from the Cheness iaitos. Now theres a good reason why.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2010 18:24:36 GMT
From the point of view as a first-timer, this may be because there's a distinct lack of reviews (at least here on SBG) for iaitos. I figure a good way would be to have a few experienced people who can efficiently get the iaito under review around to provide a number of different points of view on that iaito - that, to me, would satisfy the fact that people have different balance/manufacturer/fitting preferences. I'd certainly find that sort of thing very, very useful.
Otherwise, it seems there's no real winner among the options available. If the Tori didn't have that hideous suede wrap, it might've done, but still...
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Post by I Frammenti Di Fede on Dec 7, 2010 19:36:14 GMT
Thanks for the info whitefeathers, I thought munetoshi would have some better iaitos though lol.
How can you not like the suede!? My god that is the most comfortable wrap I have ever used while training. I don't know about you guys but when you get blisters from training with cotton wraps and such that suede wrap is the best thing ever.
I'ma let you have your opinion, but seude ito is the best ito of all time. OF ALL TIME. Or maybe the tsunami ito also
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2010 19:56:25 GMT
Well, I'm not an iaidoka - I'm more used to my white oak bokken than anything else, but the donated iaito that I've handled during our iaijutsu practices are all cotton-wrap (the one in particular that I tend to use, I think, was originally from e-bogu.com, but it's out of my budget range). That, and I'm not a fan of how suede looks, but that's me.
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Post by Student of Sword on Dec 7, 2010 20:28:03 GMT
@serayil: The wrap on the Tori is not suede. It is leather. craigd: The tsuka length on those iatio are the correct tsuka length in term of iaido. Most of the production swords have tsuka longer than neccessary. Unless you are a giant, 9.5 inches is the recommended tsuka length. Most production swords tsuka lenght is 11 inches -- too long. There should be no more than 0.5 - 1 inches between your right and left hand.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2010 20:47:14 GMT
The websites that sell it have it wrong then, I suppose.
I'm still split between either banking on a Hanwei iaito, or giving the Japanese-made ones from Tozando a go. At least I'm glad I didn't get stuck with a blade that has a poor feel to it - always a silver lining to every cloud.
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