Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Aug 5, 2010 4:01:16 GMT
So my friend was recently at Leeds Armouries in England and took some photos. One of which is this Now, a war club has been used since the beginning of time. The quiz question is this; judging by the craftsmanship and style, who can tell what period in European history these were used?
|
|
Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Aug 5, 2010 4:28:04 GMT
Avery, I know I am for sure way off and not even close, so just a stab in the dark, oops...a 'whump' in the dark...World War I yeah not even close, but heck Brother, gave it a 'whump' ;D Actually you clubbed on the head, as it were. WW1 trench clubs. Huh, I figured it would take at least a little while before someone guessed right, have a karma. It's humbling to think that with all the advancements in warfare throughtout the ages it's still the simplest of weapons relied on more than most would think.
|
|
|
Post by William Swiger on Aug 5, 2010 15:54:34 GMT
The picture behind the clubs gave it away lol.
|
|
Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Aug 5, 2010 18:00:11 GMT
The picture behind the clubs gave it away lol. Yeah, I was hoping no one would look at it too closely, lol.
|
|
|
Post by YlliwCir on Aug 5, 2010 18:04:15 GMT
LOL, I wasn't looking at the pics but I'd have guessed more modern use as well. The bashing in of heads is a practice that has stood the test of time.
|
|
Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Aug 5, 2010 19:43:03 GMT
LOL, I wasn't looking at the pics but I'd have guessed more modern use as well. The bashing in of heads is a practice that has stood the test of time. ...and it's fun for the whole family.
|
|
|
Post by YlliwCir on Aug 5, 2010 19:52:35 GMT
LOL, I wasn't looking at the pics but I'd have guessed more modern use as well. The bashing in of heads is a practice that has stood the test of time. ...and it's fun for the whole family. Yeah, just ask Abel...errr...I mean Cain.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 2:32:57 GMT
it seemed to me like they were used when plate armor first started to be introduced, before the clubs needed to be more spiked and metaly to get through thicker armor.
Show's what i know. rofl.
|
|
Brett Whinnen
Member
I know enough to know I still know nothing
Posts: 208
|
Post by Brett Whinnen on Aug 6, 2010 9:10:43 GMT
And in WWII they used sharpened trenching shovels instead...
Nice quiz Avery!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 15:55:13 GMT
Considering most WWI infantrymen were armed with a slow-firing bolt-action rifle (a poor weapon to use in trench-fighting, IMHO), I'm not surprised they used these clubs.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 22:44:28 GMT
The M1 carbine is anything but slow in the hands of somebody who knows how to use it. Also, WWI saw the invention of the machine gun, the Luger, and the .45 automatic.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 22:50:16 GMT
Yes, but many of these weapons saw action near the end of the war and pistols, like the Luger, were mostly the weapons of the officers, not the common infantryman. For the first two or three years of the war, the vast majority of the small arms used were bolt-action rifles and other guns that weren't well suited for trench combat.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 23:11:15 GMT
(Wikipedia)
The European forces may have had the Lee-Enfield and French Lebel. But the Us forces had the following:
The 1911 was a standard issue even to infantry forces and Non-Coms particularly in the newly formed Armored divisions. That the war clubs, and trench knives saw so much use, is not a testament to the inability of the firearms of the times but a testament to the effectiveness of those weapons that saw origin in the dawn of time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 23:45:29 GMT
So with un-suitable firearms issued, trench bound soldiers resorted to truncheons... where were the gladiuses???(gladii?)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 23:50:37 GMT
Google M1918 Trench knife aka "the knuckle duster"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 23:57:03 GMT
(Wikipedia) The European forces may have had the Lee-Enfield and French Lebel. But the Us forces had the following: The 1911 was a standard issue even to infantry forces and Non-Coms particularly in the newly formed Armored divisions. That the war clubs, and trench knives saw so much use, is not a testament to the inability of the firearms of the times but a testament to the effectiveness of those weapons that saw origin in the dawn of time. All these automatic and semi-automatic weapons entered the war in mid-1917 or later. The Springfield was a bolt-action rifle like the others that were used since the begining of the war, its faster-firing version (by using a Pedersen device, if my memory is right) wasn't used until the near end of the conflict. I will clarify my earlier point ; I am not saying that these bolt-action rifles were bad weapons, many of them are still very good, popular firearms. They were deadly when used to shoot down incoming enemy troops over no man's land. However, they weren't the best type of weapon to fight inside a trench, where they were turns at every 15 feets ; they were too long, slow-firing and heavy (although this last characteristic can be useful in very close-quarter combat...). Shorter, faster-firing weapons weren't deployed in large numbers until the last 18 months of the war. Before that happened, however, a good piece of wood with a metal head was briefly man's best friend
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2010 0:08:42 GMT
I've been to the shooting range with guys who use bolt actions. Slow is not a term I would use to describe how they shoot.
Now the length even of a modern M16A2 can be unwieldy in tight quarters hence the implementation of the M4. However, my only objection is to the term "slow firing" as these weapons are not. As I said, my opinion is that the weapons such as the club and knife are simply a testament the the effectiveness of those weapons and not due to a shortcoming of the firearms of the time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2010 0:15:19 GMT
I have never seen any firearm in action, besides on some youtube clips, so you can take my words with a pinch of salt. However, I still think that a bolt-action rifle isn't the best firearm for a trench. Having to handle the bolt in such a confined place, with little room between two opponents... In those circonstances, a dagger, knife or club can be a superior weapon. In any other circonstance, the rifles of the day would cut their targets apart.... .... There's really not enough work to do at my job since I have the time and energy to argue like that on the 'net
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2010 1:50:14 GMT
You know, this back and forth between you two reminds me a lot of the infamous "best sword" chestnut - with the same ultimate "answer" - what weapon is best depends on where, when, and how its going to be used.
Nobody with any knowledge of historic firearms will disparage the Springfield rifle, or the Enfield either - but in the confines of a narrow, winding trench, any non-automatic long gun is at something of a disadvantage.
Can't argue with the historical fact that many combatants found hand weapons superior in the trenches. But I wager damn few went "over the top" with a club in his hand...
So we end up right back at where, when and how, eh?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2010 2:12:59 GMT
Yeahy, we were kinda nitpicking weren't we... (LOL at the moment) I just remember I had found ways to maneuver around in an M88 tracked recovery vehicle without much trouble with an M240 (that's the M16 with the under-barrel grenade launcher) without much trouble. However, I wasn't present in WW1 to truly appreciate how encumbering the weapons of the time were. Still, the3 good old-fashioned conk on the head has something going for it.
|
|