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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2007 18:19:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2007 5:55:43 GMT
Unfortunately, that's the main problem with modern Chinese martial arts. The traditional martial traditions are just beginning to be rediscovered and Scott Rodell is quite the pioneer in the field. There really is a lack of cutting videos with Chinese swords though. I think I'm going to import a bunch of tatami mats and shoot some videos with Chinese swords cutting. Maybe get a few local kung fu masters together though I don't think they'll be able to cut as well as me what with all the experience with water bottles, milk jugs and a few stalks of bamboo.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2007 8:08:28 GMT
That was very interesting to watch. I particularly liked the second vid where he talks about making a cut and stopping with your point in line for defensive reasons. Cutting through makes better cuts but creates bad fighting habits. Historically, I think the only time you might want to cut through is if you are executing someone and want to give them a merciful death.
Garrettc, you make a very valid point. If you practice cutting, you get very, very good at it. I have no doubt that you can cut better then me. I occasionally cut Pepsi bottles. I am very bad at it. I can do it with a too handed sword, but rarely with a one handed sword. My sword fighting training teaches me to do the opposite of cutting through. When I strike out with my sword, my thoughts are on recovery or my follow up shot. In a battle, you do not need to cut someone's head off to beat them. If you can put a small chip into their skull or any of their bones that guy is out of the battle. 90% of my shots will be blocked or avoided so I don't want to over commit to any one shot.
I sword is meant to be used against other armed people. Not bottles, tires, bamboo... etc. All these are useful for drilling, but as you drill, you should use the form that would be best for fighting with, not the best for cutting the target you are practicing on. It believe that is the point that guy was making.
Garrettc, I like you statement about traditional Chinese martial arts being rediscovered. I have been told that over the past half century they have been corrupted in an attempt to market them to the wider American consumer market. I am getting the impression from talking to people that, some guys going back to the original texts to see what they can come up from scratch. This seem to be what Scott Rodell is doing.
I know of one group that studies the Ti-Chi form but never does any contact sparring. The emphasis is on form rather then fighting. Form without function is useless. Of course the same applies in reverse. Swinging a sword without technique in inefficient. Form and function must be combined in order to transform the sword from a masculine piece of jewlery into a weapon.
I look forward to seeing more videos from Scott Rodell and seeing how his studies impact established Chiness martial arts.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2007 12:55:15 GMT
You're absolutely right tsafa. After I saw the same vid a few months ago I stopped throwing huge haymakers and tried to cut with recovering the stance in mind. It's not hard to cut flesh after all, what's hard is attacking without leaving gaping holes in the defense.
like you said, placement of the cut is more important. A cut to the face doesn't need to be particularly nice to be debilitating. I think that many people are becoming shortsighted now and focusing too much on the cut without thinking about the real implications. Although it is fun to go around cutting random objects we don't want swordsmanship to end up like Chinese martial arts do we.
It's not just in America that Chinese martial arts have been corrupted but in China as well. Most Chinese martial art practitioners just do the motions like a dance without knowing the martial applications. Granted it looks nice but it isn't a martial art anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2007 17:50:53 GMT
I can't comment on whether the Chinese martial arts are being "re" discovered or not, except maybe by the general sword community today. For a practitioner who is willing to endure years of solo forms (such as Scott Rodell) it's obvious that there is some tactical information hidden there. My point with sharing this is that the practical application of these funny-looking moves isn't normally brought to light outside of kung fu classes. Obviously with millions of soldiers and thousands of years of battles, the Chinese must have come up with something effective.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2007 19:29:24 GMT
Obviously with millions of soldiers and thousands of years of battles, the Chinese must have come up with something effective. Sure, but in the last century it has been lost as they adopted modern ways of fighting. Just as it was in Europe. Gerrettc, was on spot when he said that modern Chinese sword form resembles dancing more then fighting. I can't imagine that Chinese swordmanship in its original conception was anything other then an efficient killing system.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2007 18:11:44 GMT
Some Chinese "stylists" remarked to me that it isn't as much a blueprint for a fight as a drill. You don't expect a military obstacle course to accurately resemble a battlefield, do you?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2007 17:42:24 GMT
well, Chinese martial arts mainly focus on form that often takes a lifetime to get good at and most styles require you to train in uarmed combat for a length of time before getting anywhere near weapons. I have a friend who has been taking Tai Chi for about a year and he has yet to touch a sword. This is a bit different from Western and Japanese arts that are much more focused on the sword. Add on to that the multitude of weapons that a kung fu practitioner can use and you get a mess indeed.
However, many combat manuals were written by Chinese generals and in times of war, martial art masters would be employed by the government to train the military. In those situations only the quick and dirty curriculum, the most simple and most applicable techniques were taught to soldiers who didn't have 30 years to become masters.
But I think the biggest problem is cultural in that Chinese people frown upon the possession of weaponry of any shape and type. The floppy tin foil swords are much more easy to accept than a real sword. Chinese parents would much rather their kids do kung fu ballet. This results in a recruiting problem where like minded Chinese youth swell the ranks of JSA where a sword is much more accepted.
I will be taking real swords to a couple kung fu places around town to show and I'm really looking forward to see how the instructors and students will react.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2007 19:30:24 GMT
i think i could clear up some things here the ballet you mean is called wushu, wushu dates from what they can tell by written scripts is at least 2000 years old to start with. what we call kungfu in the west is kind of misunderstood, kungfu in china means if you can master something like certain skill with swords or unarmed combat you can say you have kungfu in this skill. in wushu you first learn tan tui, tan tui means short techniques consisting of 5 to 8 moves ( there are about 20 tan tui forms) after tan tui there are a few more short forms that consist out of jumps changes and a few forms that consist out of more moves. after you learned these you learn tao lu, tao lu is a forge of different tan tui forms that are interchangeable trough all forms. what you get here is the form you see during competitions, these forms can be done with different weapons and what looks like a dance on the outside on the inside is still only focused on fighting. the reason the swords are so flimsy is that you can hear if your technique is correct, for example if you make a trusting attack you want all the power of the trust in the tip of your blade and when done correct with a wushu blade you'll hear a loud clang like in the vid below i made when i was trying out my new wushu sword few months ago it just helps you to see if your technique is good and believe me when i say it's hard to get a proper sound out of a sword. and concerning tai chi it's not really a fighting style it's focus is (obvious something to to with chi what exactly chi is is not of importance here cause everyone properly has his own opinion about what it is) but it's also a focus on perfect control on over your body. I know people who practice it to get better in all kind of different martial arts, i myself practice it to and it's tougher then you can imagine and i think that you don't notice the difference with a sharp sword or a flimsy when doing forms
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2007 22:06:10 GMT
That was an interesting breakdown Groundedi. I have not doubt that it is difficult to master wushu. Your vid was cool too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2007 23:48:00 GMT
thanks tsafa these are some movies of the beijing wushu team if you look closely you'll see that all the fancy movement can be executed as cut's if using a real sword for the rest of it it's just beautifull to watch enjoy
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2007 0:21:53 GMT
Exactly, it's a matter of obtaining control over your body. War is always unpredicable, you can't learn techniques for all the situations, but if you can make your body work efficiently, then you have a fighting chance. Kudos.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2007 3:58:22 GMT
i think i could clear up some things here the ballet you mean is called wushu, wushu dates from what they can tell by written scripts is at least 2000 years old to start with. what we call kungfu in the west is kind of misunderstood, kungfu in china means if you can master something like certain skill with swords or unarmed combat you can say you have kungfu in this skill. in wushu you first learn tan tui, tan tui means short techniques consisting of 5 to 8 moves ( there are about 20 tan tui forms) after tan tui there are a few more short forms that consist out of jumps changes and a few forms that consist out of more moves. after you learned these you learn tao lu, tao lu is a forge of different tan tui forms that are interchangeable trough all forms. what you get here is the form you see during competitions, these forms can be done with different weapons and what looks like a dance on the outside on the inside is still only focused on fighting. the reason the swords are so flimsy is that you can hear if your technique is correct, for example if you make a trusting attack you want all the power of the trust in the tip of your blade and when done correct with a wushu blade you'll hear a loud clang like in the vid below i made when i was trying out my new wushu sword few months ago it just helps you to see if your technique is good and believe me when i say it's hard to get a proper sound out of a sword. and concerning tai chi it's not really a fighting style it's focus is (obvious something to to with chi what exactly chi is is not of importance here cause everyone properly has his own opinion about what it is) but it's also a focus on perfect control on over your body. I know people who practice it to get better in all kind of different martial arts, i myself practice it to and it's tougher then you can imagine and i think that you don't notice the difference with a sharp sword or a flimsy when doing forms I have to disagree, while modern wushu does have martial roots. It is now not much more than a performance art. While practitioners are very skilled and athletic they don't know very much about fighting. The foily swords do not teach proper technique. How can they when the balance is all off and they are flapping all over the place? Using one of those is nothing close to the real thing. In fact, wooden wasters are preferable and that was the traditional tool but because wushu is a demonstration sport first and foremost, they have to use flashy shiny blades. Finally, Tai Chi is most definitely a fighting style and the most misunderstood one at that. While wushu has been transformed into a performance art, tai chi as been transformed into a healthy yoga type exercise and if you aren't learning the martial applications you aren't learning the art as it was meant to be.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2007 13:57:22 GMT
your partially right about wushu being a performance art but that's only 1 aspect of it, in total wushu exists out of more that 500 different styles the intern styles like tai chi quan, xing yi, baguazhang. and extern styles like the modern and traditional styles or the northern and southern styles. i myself practice wushu and tai chi quan we also do a lot of workshops with our sifu a while ago we headed for Germany to attend in a workshop Qigong, which is a health based tai chi like style what you learn in these workshops is the equivalent of what you get in 10 years of learning under these masters in china (not that your an immediate master or something just the amount of forms and movements you learn in the short time). these are all chi based movements that are for health purpose and relaxation, in wushu which is much more explosive in movements we do not just get some pretty movements that look cool, there is a system in it and every jab, kick or other movement also got a purpose. the first and most basic skill in martial arts is the balance of the martial artist himself cause without balance you can't kick, punch or slice your opponent, due to all the "pretty movements" balance is an important part in wushu being able to make a back wards loop without thinking so you can focus on your attack during the jump for instance. also the athletics is important being able to stand less then 10 inches away from a person and kick against his head in an instance. off course in today's wushu there is a lot of show element but i think these would be best compared to something like blade dancers or artists, if a persons able to reach a level where he masters his body , weapons and mind where he can do things a normal john doe can only dream of why not show it in an artistic way, i mean in today's day we don't walk across the streets with swords anymore do we? and still today wushu is based on fighting and improving your body and mind, every technique i learn can also be used in a fight. hell in wushu you can find elements of almost every martial art from china (if not all), and for tai chi it learns you to control your mind and body although it roots came from fighting it is not meant to use in a real fight the way your learn it but certain applications in it like balance feeling of yourself and of your opponent and absorb and reflect power of pushes and punches. there is a lot more to it and i probably forget half of it but it's really complicated, if i can find some time i might make a few movies to explain some things about it makes it much more easy
p.s. garrettc about the flimsy foil blades those are the low end wushu blades that won't last longer that a month in training to say so, the swords we use are professional competition blades weighting in at almost the same weight and balance as real swords made out of high quality spring steel to keep the form of the blade intact and it's hard to get a proper sound out of it cause they're much stiffer that the foil versions
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2007 10:52:08 GMT
I'm not talking about the other traditional CMA styles. I'm talking about modern sport wushu that you will see as a demonstration sport in Beijing 2008 that was created by the government of the People's Republic of China after 1949 in an attempt to nationalize CMA and change it from the traditional family village type of martial art. For example, Tai Chi originated in the Chen village and was only practised there among the Chen family until an outsider with surname Yang learned it and spread it around. I repeat that Tai chi is literally a fighting art. Shortened forms of tai chi were taught to Chinese troops and soldiers preparing for war do not need qi gong. Such is the deplorable state of CMA that actual practitioners don't know that tai chi can be used for fighting.
Also what you said about balance...that goes for any sport such as figure skating or gymnastics. It is not exclusive to martial arts. What distinguishes martial arts is the martial aspect combined with the civil aspect. I know this very well as it is part of my Chinese name(in my sig). The character that combines civil and martial. This is also fundamental to tai chi which emphasizes the balance between yin and yang or the balance of civil and martial. If you are only learning the health aspect or yin then you are learning a corrupted version that is missing the martial yang component.
about the wushu swords. I assume the Beijing team also uses professional competition blades but their blades still flop around like dead fish. The best substitute other than the real thingis still wood and that's why after hundreds of years JSA people still use bokken and WMA people still use wasters. Only Wushu has gone the floppy steel route. Training with sword is not about how hard it is to make a sound (it's damn near impossible to make a sound with a wooden sword). It's not difficult to make a sound with an authentic jian. The prominent diamond shape with ridge cuts through the air with a very sharp whistling sound. NOT a flapping tinfoil sound wushu swords normally make.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2007 12:38:11 GMT
well it's still a complicated subject to explain my, my sifu was a profesional member of the beijing wushu team during 12 years perhaps you heard of her Sifu Zheng Wenhua she's famous in china a believe. she's the one that explained to me what wushu and tai chi is all about and to be honest it's an immense load of information so when i get some time off and have a place and a camera i'll try to shoot some movies to explain certain parts
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2007 21:57:53 GMT
Groundedi, I do not place great value on hype/credentials at all. That's not to say that your shifu is bad, she could be an amazing instructor for all I know. Here is a wushu/taichi place in my city: www.taichi.ca/edmonton/index.htmif you read the instructors' bios, they do have a lot of credentials but what do they have to back it up? I personally know many of their students and they've told me quite emphatically that they have no idea how to fight.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2007 23:39:16 GMT
I was speaking to a Taichi instructor this past week. He runs is class in the same place I do Rapier Fencing at an earlier time. I watched the last half hour of his class and at the end I asked him about the martial aspect of what he does.
He told me that Taichi completely non-combative. It is all about breathing and clearing the mind. It is a meditation like yoga. He told me he knew of one guy back in the sixties, who is now dead, who had developed the Taichi form into a competitive fighting system. However in its present form it is not a fighting art, its yoga with a fake sword.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 12:21:35 GMT
I was speaking to a Taichi instructor this past week. He runs is class in the same place I do Rapier Fencing at an earlier time. I watched the last half hour of his class and at the end I asked him about the martial aspect of what he does. He told me that Taichi completely non-combative. It is all about breathing and clearing the mind. It is a meditation like yoga. He told me he knew of one guy back in the sixties, who is now dead, who had developed the Taichi form into a competitive fighting system. However in its present form it is not a fighting art, its yoga with a fake sword. Agree to what the instructor is telling. To me, I think the results is based on your action. I mean if you practice Taijiquan simply for your own health then it is completely non-combative, but if you wish to kick some ass, then a simple kick in Taijiquan would do it... I mean, even soccer players can kick people to death... Nowadays people tend to think Martial Arts is a way of proving ones self to kick some one's ass. The real meaning behind Martial Arts (particularly in China, WUSHU) is a way of living and wisdom. Through practice of WUSHU you can really stop thinking about fighting or compete, and just be wise and healthy...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2007 15:45:13 GMT
I liked your comparison to: soccer players kicking people to death!!! lol
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