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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 12:39:40 GMT
After having watched the Deadliest Warrior for the past two seasons and the failure of every sword to penetrate body armor I ask you all. Is there any sword that can pierce or cut body armor made of either bronze, iron or steel?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 14:48:50 GMT
Not solid body armor, not. In fact, there are very few swords that are meant to opposed plate armor with the edge of the sword, it just doesn't work so well. There are a few, granted, but not all that many. Most swordsmiths figured out that to efficiently oppose plate, the point works a LOT better. There are a few swords in the later medieval period designed to opposed plate directly (I'm thinking here of type XVIIs) but in the old world? Not so much. Reason being, a sword would never be expected to directly oppose plate. Swords were softer back then, and edges and points would roll much MUCH more quickly, so you wouldn't ruin a perfectly good sword when a cheap spear would do. Also, in terms of plate armor, it was really REALLY f-ing thick. Medieval armors tend to be lighter because they're steel, and less of it is just as strong, but the average panalopy of a greek hopolite could weigh up to 15 kg, and that's just the armor. On a small man (as the ancient greeks were) this would be a formidable amount of bronze to cut through.
So the short answer is, in the ancient world? Not so much. There are a few rare examples, but these are on thinner bronze helmets, as opposed to the thicker bronze or iron chest armors of the greeks and romans.
In the medieval period, there are most certainly swords that could punch a hole in a breastplate (estocs) but it would have been WAY easier to shove the point up under the armpit than through the breastplate. And even then, most european soldiers would have simple switched to a weapon better suited to the task, like a warhammer, or a mace, or an axe, or a halberd, or a rondel dagger, or a spear, or a pike.... etc. etc.
Non plate armor is an ENTIRELY different story. I'd suggest you move this question to the medieval weaponry section and you'll get a metric semprini-ton of answers starting with XII or XIII or XVI or most especially XVII. Non plate armor (chainmail, splint mail, boiled leather, cloth) was still vulnerable to a sword, and so there are definitely types designed specifically to defeat them.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 15:12:37 GMT
Thanks
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 16:10:12 GMT
Have to disagree slightly with Bryn, NO sword can puncture a solid steel breastplate, that's just rediculous. Heck, not even medieval longbow arrows would go through hardened steel armor and against unhardened armor you need to be in close range. Now the longbow has MUCH more power than any sword thrust, even when halfswording, so that just doesn't work. It is possible to pierce flat 1mm steel (I've done that with my H/T longsword) but a smooth, round breastplate out of steel, that's impossible. On the rest I absolutely agree with Bryn, in ancient times were wasn't even a need to pierce armor anyway, I mean romans and greeks wore "only" torso armor and a helmet so you still have enough targets. On the full clad medieval knight that's a different story.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 22:47:47 GMT
A percussive weapon to the helm makes it very easy to just bypass the need for an armor-piercing sword entirely.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 23:24:44 GMT
A percussive weapon to the helm makes it very easy to just bypass the need for an armor-piercing sword entirely. Got that right. I was visiting the Wallace Collection in London last week and they had some BRUTAL-looking 15th century maces. Gives you chills.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 0:22:56 GMT
@ chennesfan, Aren't there a couple of examples of breastplates with sword-holes in the torso? Maybe I'm just making things up.
Edit: Yup, I'm making that up. There are, however helmets with square holes indicative of the butt-spikes on a greek spear, indicating that they were used as backspikes.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 10:48:55 GMT
@ chennesfan, Aren't there a couple of examples of breastplates with sword-holes in the torso? Maybe I'm just making things up. Edit: Yup, I'm making that up. There are, however helmets with square holes indicative of the butt-spikes on a greek spear, indicating that they were used as backspikes. As "armor piercing" swords (actually made to pierce mail, not plate) would have more or less the same section in the tip as the spike of a polearms or warhammer so we can't know with wich of them the holes in armor are made with...
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 10:54:19 GMT
You sure of that?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 16:07:11 GMT
Actually, Luca, I'm pretty sure that these were backspikes. The holes are square and about half an inch a side. Seems to me that the the hopolite swords were much thinner in cross-section. Maybe flattened diamond, but not square square. I mean, these were BIG square holes. Hold on, let me see if I can find the pictures. bmonday.com/images/35/r_DSC00115.jpgBottom row, second in from left
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 16:09:07 GMT
@ chennesfan, Aren't there a couple of examples of breastplates with sword-holes in the torso? Maybe I'm just making things up. Edit: Yup, I'm making that up. There are, however helmets with square holes indicative of the butt-spikes on a greek spear, indicating that they were used as backspikes. As "armor piercing" swords (actually made to pierce mail, not plate) would have more or less the same section in the tip as the spike of a polearms or warhammer so we can't know with wich of them the holes in armor are made with... Well, go on and try to pierce a breast plate with a sword. Doesn't work, I tell you. A powerful blow with a war spike surpasses the power of a sword thrust BY FAR and does break through solid steel if you hit it right. Also, The point of a war spike is a lot thicker and more massive than every sword I've seen. I'm sure there are some exceptions but normally the short and massive spike differs greatly from the tip of a XVIII or so.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 16:11:21 GMT
Sure of what? The longbow thing? Yes, I am. There's a good show on youtube called weapons that made britain. There they test the bow against a historically accurate breast plate out of hardened steel and against one with normal steel. The difference is certainly there. I'd recommend the show, it's really good.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 16:40:33 GMT
The battle of Agincourt?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 16:50:18 GMT
And?
Goes through the armor but only barely and no injury to the knight.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 17:20:12 GMT
Have to disagree slightly with Bryn, NO sword can puncture a solid steel breastplate, that's just rediculous. Heck, not even medieval longbow arrows would go through hardened steel armor and against unhardened armor you need to be in close range. Now the longbow has MUCH more power than any sword thrust, even when halfswording, so that just doesn't work. It is possible to pierce flat 1mm steel (I've done that with my H/T longsword) but a smooth, round breastplate out of steel, that's impossible. I saw a demonstration once where a sword was used (in halfsword, I think) to pierce a steel breastplate, BUT it penetrated less than 2 inches and got stuck (took a couple seconds to retrieve). The result would be a pissed off but still very much alive opponent and your weapon momentarily immobilized. So yeah, not such a good idea.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 17:46:24 GMT
So the definitive answer is: Cut, no. Pierce? Maybe. Depends on your definition. Actually punch the tip in, sure. Kill the guy inside? Maybe, depends on the breastplate. Punch through thinner gauge armor, for example at the arms? Sure! I'd believe that.
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Post by enkidu on May 19, 2010 18:11:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 19:50:07 GMT
What was that breastplate made out of? I was quite surprised when it crumpled from a cut I've Never heard of swords piercing the breastplate. Halfswording tends to go for the joints for this very reason.
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Post by enkidu on May 19, 2010 20:04:29 GMT
You know if you place padding and a human being inside the armour it does make a difference on how the plating reacts to impacts.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 20:31:12 GMT
So the definitive answer is: Cut, no. Pierce? Maybe. Depends on your definition. Actually punch the tip in, sure. Kill the guy inside? Maybe, depends on the breastplate. Punch through thinner gauge armor, for example at the arms? Sure! I'd believe that. I think that's a good way to see it. I highly doubt any sword can pierce a steel breastplate far enough to actually kill the guy inside but that's hard to prove. It is sure however that attacking a solid metal surface with a sword, be it the breastplate or the arm protection is never a very clever idea, the gaps in the armor are a MUCH better target.
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