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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 1:02:08 GMT
If I'm not mistaken, bluing steel (hot or cold) is actually a controlled method of forming black rust. Leaving a layer of rough and unpolished steel on the blade is another method of protecting the steel underneath. I'm not 100% sure though. Maybe Sam, Angus, Tinker, or another smith could confirm that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 1:24:00 GMT
This article is about the historical uses of black oxide. For modern uses of black oxide, see Black oxide.
Bluing is a passivation process in which steel is partially protected against rust, and is named after the blue-black appearance of the resulting protective finish. True gun bluing is an electrochemical conversion coating resulting from an oxidizing chemical reaction with iron on the surface selectively forming magnetite (Fe3O4), the black oxide of iron, which occupies the same volume as metallic iron. Black oxide provides minimal protection against corrosion, unless also treated with a water-displacing oil to reduce wetting and galvanic action.
In contrast, rust, the red oxide of iron (Fe2O3), does not occupy the same volume as iron, thereby causing the typical reddish rusting away of iron. Both "cold" and "hot" oxidizing processes are called bluing, but only the "hot" process provides any significant rust and corrosion resistance, and then only when also treated with an oiled coating.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 1:43:47 GMT
funny my harley lives out side and has plenty of rust and I assure you it hasn't been detrimental to it's structural integrity, a sword is just a tool and many tools spend there whole lives out side getting dirty and rusty, as did real swords for thousands of years, remember not every one had the opportunity to clean there weapon every day or the luxury of having some one to do it for them, so blood and dirt and rust are natural parts of a swords life, so yes my swords get dirty and some times they even rust, but I assure you a little time with some steel wool and they are just fine. not true... swords were the feraris of their time... anyone who was rich/lucky enough to have one cleaned it out periodically... Same with guns. I don't have much experience there, but others in this forum who have guns will tell you, if you don't clean your gun regularly, it will destroy it...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 3:05:22 GMT
a sword was definitely an expensive and prized possession, but a Viking raider, or a soldier on a campaign, especially in England with all the rain and fog, would be hard pressed to keep himself dry let alone his sword, and between marching and fighting and hunting for food, he would have had precious little time for "proper sword maintenance" and lets face it you couldn't just run down to the store for a scotch bright pad and some WD-40
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 3:09:56 GMT
In the case of Vikings some scabbards were lined inside with furs which gave off natural oils to protect the blade I believe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 5:27:43 GMT
For blades, no patina, rust etc. For hilt, I've seen some wonderful patina jobs that look outstanding, especially with simulated wear on edges, which accentuate the edges.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 7:56:55 GMT
I think that the more substantial armed forces, throughout history, came to be that way because they understood the need to do minimal upkeep on their blades. Granted the rich and well off folks took great lengths to make their status symbol as shiney as possible. But I'd imagine that your common viking knew enough to wipe the moisture from the blade and apply some sort of oil or wax in between raids.
As vicious as the vikings were, they weren't dumb.
But to keep in the spirit of the thread, I hate mirror finishes on blades that I use. I don't ever want to own a blade that I wouldn't cut with for fear of messing up the polish job.
Actually, I might own ONE blade if I ever decided to get a custom piece done as a family heirloom or something, but anything else will be cleaned, but not perfect.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 8:33:12 GMT
mirror finishes cut better if they are done correctly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 8:57:58 GMT
Since a Harley has been brought up...
...Automotive Analogy!
A little surface rust doesn't detract from the structural integrity of the vehicle, no...but in an ideal situation, a car/bike would still have none. Give it time, and a little cancer turns into bodyrot. Before you know it, you can see the road through the floorboards. Sure, it takes something like moisture to help it along, but what is it that causes our swords to rust?
Same thing goes for people. A person never washes up or bathes and they get sick. Get sick enough, and, just like swords, sooner or later the integrity of the body goes to hell.
I will always clean and care for my swords. I don't want them to rust. They don't have to be pristine, but I won't neglect them to the point that I have deep rust. That's just a bad idea if you want the sword to last.
Also, on the note of historic blades and how they were used in damp conditions...sure, they may get damaged and rusty, but, provided the user made it home, I highly doubt they left it that way.
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Post by shadowhowler on Apr 18, 2010 13:22:33 GMT
I'm with RicWilly... my blades get USED... so the odd scratch and dent and bump and nik... all to be expected and part of the swords character. Rust however, I try to keep to a minimum. Some of my blades rust fater then others, even tho I treat them all the same... its very interesting to watch... but I do not let huge piles of rust build up on my swords.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2010 3:12:07 GMT
The Norsemen used to have their scabbards lined with thinned wool if they could, but often they carried a sheepskin heavy with the lanolin oil in a bag in their sea chest and after a wipe gave it a rub in the skin. It worked brilliantly, often their mail would spend its time folded up in a similar sheep skin and contained in another bag with the same principle.
I use lanolin spray on all my blades and never get red rust just occassional black oxide. My salt n vinegar patina'ed ones need closer observation as it will TRY to get red rust going if the oil dries off but after a year it gives up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2010 15:44:21 GMT
very interesting, I would like to see some pictures of your salt & vinegar treated ones, I have an old windless that I am planing to try that with
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 17:29:56 GMT
Shiny yes, rust, no. I always dry my blades after cutting bottles, then oil them. Then I leave them out of the scabbard indoors for another day for good measure
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 18:34:40 GMT
I'm gonna make my Windlass Effigy some rusty and keep it that way, it'd look cool. I want my Cold Steel Broadsword to stay in good shape though, so i'm not really using it, and I don't let it get wet.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 18:19:22 GMT
Who the hell would want their blades to be rusty and dirty? great quote I think I will steal it and use it hmmm lets see how about down here /index.cgi?board=swordcustom&action=display&thread=16262
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2010 18:51:37 GMT
a sword was definitely an expensive and prized possession, but a Viking raider, or a soldier on a campaign, especially in England with all the rain and fog, would be hard pressed to keep himself dry let alone his sword, and between marching and fighting and hunting for food, he would have had precious little time for "proper sword maintenance" and lets face it you couldn't just run down to the store for a scotch bright pad and some WD-40 granted, but archers were expected to keep their bows properly sealed against the elements during campaigns (imagine what a bloody mess it would be if you shot a bow that's been affected by water... they bend more, are less accurate, and can kill your people). Though not able to get WD-40, I'm pretty sure any soldier would bring with him some sort of lard or grease... and if they didn't have it, there would have always been some sort of habitation nearby to steal it from...
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 14:41:14 GMT
That really depends on the sword in question. I keep all of my swords clean and well oiled after use and am careful to polish out scratches in my more expensive blades. But my Windlass Baron gets to keep the scratches. It's my workhorse. I do most of my cutting with it.
I don't like my swords to have a mirror polish. Thats too shiny. I prefer a dull shine. My Baron had a prompt meeting with the sandpaper the evening I got it.
I won't let my blades get rusty. For me that would speak of neglect.
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