Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2009 6:33:08 GMT
Heyo, so just now, a friend and I were doing some bottle cutting with my Musashi Shirasaya. Lots of fun, but to be honest, my friend had piss-poor edge alignment when he cuts. He continually bats the bottle away on a horizontal cut and his diagonals are only a bit better.
After a particularly bad swing, I took a look at the blade and it appears to have taken a slight set. Nothing major. While the majority of the blad is mostly straight, the set is near the habaki, and bends out to the left a tad before realigning.
First off, is it likely that the set will get worse? Is this a game-breaker? Should I not cut anymore until I fix it?
If it IS a big issue, is there a good DIY way to fix this set?
I have many many tools available, including rubber mallets, sledgehammers, an anvil, and many more. Any help would be great.
Thanks a ton, Komaru
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2009 6:44:27 GMT
I don't have a WHOLE lot to offer you as advice, since there are a folks a lot more well-versed in metallurgy and working with steel who could offer advice on eliminating a set, though you've put some serious stress fractures in there at this point, so I don't know. I've heard you can even leave it lying in the sun all day with gravity working to correct the set as a fix, but don't take my word for it, lol. It suffices to say that I do know that it's generally regarded as VERY dangerous to cut with a blade in Shirasaya, set in the blade notwithstanding. The lack of tsuba makes it possible to slip your hand up onto the blade, though the more pressing issue it that without a proper tsuka and ito wrap to stabilize it, there is very little preventing the wood handle from cracking and turning one of your swings into a flying helicopter of death scenario. Not trying to be a downer, but it'll come up sooner or later, so I brought it up. I'm all for enjoying the hell out of your swords, but safety comes first, so to speak. Just a reminder to be careful, you know? Hope at least some of that helps.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Dec 7, 2009 6:47:09 GMT
Hmm... I started a panic-thread about a bad bend in my Cheness Kaze awhile back, and there was some really great advice in that thread... Let me see if I can go find it. ;D Oh, and I agree 100% with Lunaman's assessment. Cutting with a shirasaya = dangerous. ;D -Slayer
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2009 6:58:10 GMT
unfortunatle swords are not computers and don't have a reset button.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2009 7:01:49 GMT
it's generally regarded as VERY dangerous to cut with a blade in Shirasaya While it's very tempting to say "Well, what can I say? I'm a dangerous guy." I know it won't win me any brownie points here. I thank you for your concern, but the sword will hold together fine, I guarantee it. The more and more I look at the blade, I'm wondering if this is just the way it came. It was never perfectly straight, and it's hard to see in with just the one point of light sometimes. Hopefully SlayerofDarkness can find the thread he's talking about.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Dec 7, 2009 7:09:28 GMT
Here it is! ;D Sorry it took me so long... I thought that it was from longer ago than it actually was. I started looking on page 11 of the Japanese forum, and didn't see it in 11-24. Turns out it was on 8, lol! ;D Anyway, for your viewing pleasure... /index.cgi?board=japaneseswords&action=display&thread=11761&page=1 Hope this helps! ;D -Slayer
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2009 23:17:17 GMT
As long as the tsuka is properly made, you should be able to cut with it fine. There are numerous swords throughout history that have no guard. As to the set, if it is not to severe then leave it; you would probably damage it more trying to bend it back.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2009 20:22:50 GMT
Good bit of detective work there Slayer to pull up that old thread. I will regurgitate my post from that thread. All you have to do is make or borrow one of these jigs Put your sword in the appropriate slots to isolate the bend and use some grunt and unbend your sword. Don't put too much muscle into it first but try it. If it is not straight, put a little more muscle into it. If not straight, repeat. These jigs do work great for twists too. There was another method mentioned that used a clamp and a couple of blocks to isolate the bend and push it out with the clamp. I haven't tried that method myself but I know that the above jig works quite well. Hope that helps.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 17:31:17 GMT
How can you guarentee the tsuka is not going to come apart? Granted we use better glue than they did back int he day but without a fuchi, and ito, and ideally a full wrap same its still just two pieces of wood held together by glue under a rather significant amount of stress.
Also as to your friend not being able to do horizontals... keep in mind those are the most difficult cut to do...
Straight down is the easiest, downward diagonal is the second... maybe just have him stick to those til he improves.
And yes you should straighten it before using it to avoid making it worse, plus a set depending on how bad could throw off the balance and make it even harder to cut. if its not a major set you can just fix it over your knee.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 18:12:46 GMT
I thought the shirasaya swords were pinned? I'm talking about the ones that're modeled after the Zatoichi style, not ones that are temporarily mounted.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 18:38:17 GMT
They are pinned... but the pin is more a secondary securement... Companies do two because they use one size fits all tsuka so its "extra security" but frankly IMO its more just so there is no pivot point for the tang... i.e. the second pin just keeps the nakago from shifting since they aren't fitted properly. But the pin isn't going to be dong much good if the hilt starts coming apart which is the danger with shirasaya... even the ones made out of the same wood regularly used for tsuka (which is not the case traditionally i believe... they used a softer more breathable wood) theres not much holding the sword together or taking any of the stress away when cutting... its jsut all going straight into the wood.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 20:52:41 GMT
So, a sword in shirasaya is meant as only a temporary thing? I did not know that.
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Post by Dan Davis on Dec 14, 2009 20:57:04 GMT
I thought the shirasaya swords were pinned? I'm talking about the ones that're modeled after the Zatoichi style, not ones that are temporarily mounted. Okay, there is a BIG difference between shikomi-zue (literal: "sword cane") and shirasaya (literal: "white scabbard"); even though most people use the terms interchangeably. A shirasaya is a storage scabbard and it is designed and intended to split along the seams under stress. Cutting when the sword is mounted in furniture that is DESIGNED to fall apart is unwise. However, it has been exclusively proven that you cannot stop someone determined to do this and all it does is create bad blood. So, let's answer the original question and not stir up a hornet's nest by trying again.They are pinned... but the pin is more a secondary securement... Actually, the tsuka on a Japanese-styled sword is designed to allow the blade to slip out of the front and the pins are the PRIMARY means of preventing this from happening when you don't want it to. Just as the pommel/pommel nut is the primary means of keeping a bastard sword inside it's hilt. Companies do two because they use one size fits all tsuka so its "extra security" Most companies do individually fitted tsuka; very few try to force fit the same tsuka onto all their blades. The issue lies in how close they make the fit, since the more time you spend on fitting, the more it costs. Still, in the case of Chinese forges I have generally found that it is a lack of understanding that causes poor fit and the craftsmen are ready and willing to learn how to fit things better. Historically, nihonto made during time of war were mounted with two mekugi; in peacetime only one. This is simply because the amount of use the sword would typically endure between checking and cleaning went up exponentially during wartime. In modern usage a general paradigm was established back in the 1980's that a sword with two pins was "safer" than a sword with a single pin. This had to do with the fact that the 1970's produced many "samurai-ninja" bubble-gum martial arts films and the swords became popular. Unfortunately, the majority of swords available in the early 80's were either crap wallhanger pieces or old gunto with deteriorating, worn out furniture that failed a lot. but frankly IMO its more just so there is no pivot point for the tang... i.e. the second pin just keeps the nakago from shifting since they aren't fitted properly. In some cases this may be true, but don't make too much stew from one oyster But the pin isn't going to be dong much good if the hilt starts coming apart which is the danger with shirasaya... Amen!! Can I get a Hallelujah? even the ones made out of the same wood regularly used for tsuka (which is not the case traditionally i believe... they used a softer more breathable wood) theres not much holding the sword together or taking any of the stress away when cutting... its just all going straight into the wood. A traditional shirasaya is made of the same wood as regular koshirae (Honoki, a subspecies of Magnolia) and is typically of better quality, since it is exposed to both the elements and to the eye of the viewer. With production shirasaya who knows what you get; it really depends upon the maker. At any rate you are right about the force: The wood of the koshirae absorbs the force of a cut, the mekugi simply hold the tsuka on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2010 22:16:05 GMT
Halleujah? HALLELUJAH! Interesting and I hope I don't have to use this advice anytime soon.
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Post by zeldakatana on Jan 9, 2010 1:02:57 GMT
Heyo, so just now, a friend and I were doing some bottle cutting with my Musashi Shirasaya. Lots of fun, but to be honest, my friend had piss-poor edge alignment when he cuts. He continually bats the bottle away on a horizontal cut and his diagonals are only a bit better. After a particularly bad swing, I took a look at the blade and it appears to have taken a slight set. Nothing major. While the majority of the blad is mostly straight, the set is near the habaki, and bends out to the left a tad before realigning. First off, is it likely that the set will get worse? Is this a game-breaker? Should I not cut anymore until I fix it? If it IS a big issue, is there a good DIY way to fix this set? I have many many tools available, including rubber mallets, sledgehammers, an anvil, and many more. Any help would be great. Thanks a ton, Komaru bend it BACK duh!
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Post by Dan Davis on Jan 9, 2010 1:12:45 GMT
Okay, that was uncalled for and not helpful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2010 21:16:44 GMT
bend it BACK duh! Okay, that was uncalled for and not helpful. bravo. let's keep it real.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 9, 2010 23:40:55 GMT
I really like that blade jig!! are there specs on that?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2010 23:49:04 GMT
I really like that blade jig!! are there specs on that? i definitely wanna know as well, since the recent set on my jin-shi. i am sure that the notch spec would be relative to blade thickness and width, but what is best for the pulling arms?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2010 15:58:01 GMT
OK, this thread was very informative for me, and begs a question. If there are so many dangers to a sword in shira re: cutting, why do so many companies insist on selling them as a...viable sword furniture medium? (was not sure how to word that, apologies). I'm not just talking the various mass production line blades (which are likely playing to demand in some cases) but even forges like AngelSword insist upon selling them as such (and IMNSHO charging entirely too much money for them, but that's a different discussion).
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