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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2006 21:15:44 GMT
Ok, here is the difficulty, I keep hearing (reading, actually) about the supposed higher quality of the more expensive swords of all types out there on the market, although this seems to relate more toward the Japanese sword. Now the confusion comes in regarding companies such as Bugei, whom to hear them describe there wares, are the flat out best on the market for everything. Not to pick on Bugei here, whom does make some remarkably beautiful and quality items, but I'm given to understand that the blades themselves come from Hanwei. Now to me, and this is of course mere opinion of someone who is just becoming involved in the world of swords, if the blade itself is the same steel found in say, a Hanwei PPK, why would this sword be a better item to cut with than the PPK? I understand that the quality control from say Bugei is more stringent, and that the furniture is of a better quality, however when it comes down to the actual steel and using the blade, is this not the really the same sword one would purchase from Chenese or Hanwei? Please bear in mind here that I do not intend to single out any company, the names are for pure example, and if anyone owns these swords or is from these companies is offended, I extend my apologies. I am simply attempting to clear up my own confusion on what actually makes a higher dollar sword a superior sword. When I read a post from someone who says that they just purchased say, a Hanwei Wind and Thunder, and then read the replies to this that claim that they should have saved up for a Bugei Dragonfly as it is a better cutter, I become massively confused as to what the actual difference is, other than the admittedly better furniture that comes with the blade. Is there perhaps somewhere that I can go to learn what the real difference is in the quality of the blades themselves as opposed to the fittings that are attached to the steel?
Red John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2006 21:31:54 GMT
Hi Red, all but Bugei's shobu are folded steel, while the PPK is mono steel.If you look at Hanwei's upper level blades(folded steel)you'll notice the prices getting close to Bugei's, add some better quality fittings, maybe a better polish and better quality control and you see where Bugei's prices come from. I havent cut with a Bugei or my Chen Tiger (its too nice !) so I cant say how they cut.Being folded or mono steel makes no difference to cutting ability, I'm no pro cutter but geometry of the blade, weight, balance all come into play,if your starting out I say go with a Chenness or Chen blade, see if you really like the hobby/sport before dumping a big bundle of cash on it.If you botch a cut and bend a $300 sword its easier to live with than breaking a $1,000 sword!Hope thats of some help.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2006 21:43:05 GMT
Well, yes and no, I understand that folded steel is by default more expensive, purely due to the extra effort that is required to make it so, however I'm given to understand that with modern metallurgical techniques there really is no need to fold the steel in order to produce a superior steel. Now I'm told, and from what I'm attempting to learn here, the only reason to fold modern steel is to conform with tradition. In other words, a non-folded steel blade, presumably made with the same steel as in a folded steel blade is every bit as resilient and strong as a higher end folded steel blade. As long as the blade is differentially tempered, as even the Hawei PK is purported to be, it should be every bit as tough as those swords from higher end sellers?
-Edit: I was typing my reply when you edited your post, so you did answer a question on price, although I'm not particularly concerned with the cost factor, what is interesting me is the actual quality of the steel. Would say the Bugei line, which I really do admit are beautiful swords, be a superior performing blade than the Hawei line of Practical Katana? And if so, what is it that makes them so?
Red John - Still the terminally confused
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2006 23:24:40 GMT
The blades in Bugei's nice $1000+ swords are made with tighter controls. The lines are cleaner, the edges sharper, the geometry better (and more consistent). It makes the sword maybe...5-10% better(at best) for cutting, but causes price to...well, y'know.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2006 23:56:18 GMT
Ok, then the consensus between all, um, two of you seems to be that there is no real difference in the actual blades, aside from the fact that you may end up with a poor quality low end blade purely due to quality control issues? That and the fittings on the higher end swords are superior fit and finish? The point I'm really attempting to get at here is that if I were to replace the fittings on a PPK with something I'd purchased for X hundred dollars, I would end up with what in all essence would be a high end sword? I've no interest in doing so, I'm merely asking in an attempt to understand what really is the difference. It seems that there is no real reason, other than to own a nicer appearing sword, to spend x hundred, or thousand dollars in order to own a "real" sword that will perform all of the functions that one would wish to use a sword for? Or am I really missing something here?
Red John - The still pretty confused
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 0:06:40 GMT
It's not necessarily quality control that's the issue, but the specifications that the blades are made to.
When making bugei blades, they designate certain dimensions, same with the PPK. The difference is with a PPK, they might allow up to a .1 inch variance on sword thickness, while with a Bugei, they may only allow a .03 inch variance to specifications. The quality of the steel, and the sturdiness of the fittings and all that is tested yes, and yes a PPK has less quality control than a Bugei, but even the PPK's that pass all quality control tests, even the ones that people get that are 'perfect' aren't going to be as spic-and-spam perfect to dimensions as a Bugei blade.
Also, one doesn't sharpen a japanese sword, one polishes it. In the act of polishing, the sword becomes sharp. Better polishing means better edge which means better cutting. And bugei's have better polishing than PPKs.
Like I said, the difference isn't severe, but it's there. A good PPK is still just a good PPK, compared to the amazing swords done for Bugei.
Lastly, Bugei uses a swedish powdered steel, and PPKs are just 1060(I think). You can be sure the swedish stuff is purer and of a superior metallurgy. Yeah they fold 'em, and folding doesn't do anyting functional anymore, just makes 'em look pretty, But swedish steel is still swedish steel.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 0:28:51 GMT
Ah HA! So there is a difference in the actual steel that makes up the blades then, even if the difference is not extreme. Let me rephrase and expand here and see if I truly understand what you've told me here; High end sword companies such as Bugei utilize a higher quality steel in the making of their blades, in Bugei's case, it is a Swedish steel, while Hanwei, for their own line, is using a 1060 steel that comes from railroad ties, and while not quite to the standards of a Swedish powder steel, is a good strong steel. Also, the standards that the higher end companies have are tighter when it comes to each individual blade that is produced, i.e, they attempt to have each of their blades fall within a tighter range of specifications than the lower end blades. So while such lower end swords as those produced by say, Cold Steel, Cheness and Hanwei are indeed good strong swords, the higher end swords will have an edge (no pun intended) over them in terms of purity of steel, variance between each individual blade, and perhaps durability. (?) This helps quite a lot Adam, thank you very much for taking the time with me here attempting to clear up my confusion. Red John, -the much less confused.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 0:31:48 GMT
I just wanted to pipe in and give alittle of what I know. It is also the overall performance to bugei's line is from them. They created the sword geomotry and I have heard that Hanwei top smiths do the work on these blade, if this being true you can see that the sword looks far better than what you buy from other hanwei swords. The mei on the bugei nakago are even better which looks to speak for the smith. The bottom line it seems is that Bugei wanted thier swords even though from Hanwei to outshine the rest of the lines, so they put more work into the manufacturing and finish and that is where the price difference is. Regards Brian D Roninswords
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 0:41:49 GMT
Ah ha! ah ha! Ok, so while Bugei in particular (and I really did not mean for this thread to become a comparison between specific companies.) does have Hanwei produce their blades, they are not the same blades that go into Hanwei's own line of swords, but are instead produced by Hanwei as a completely different set of blades altogether?
Red John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 1:04:32 GMT
Red This is right. Bugei has sword line's made for them by Hanwei. And this is for many companies we know in the sword world. Some of the forges in China make swords for 3 or 4 different companies but to different standards and finish but we as buys pay the price even thought they are the basic same sword. So it really comes to price and what we want. I hear so much about poor and cheap swords that may fail under cutting, but in the same turn as practitioners know a bad cut is a bad cut regardless of expensive the blade is. Even forge folded Japanese shinken can have the same effect if not used with proper technique. So I do encourage good training being an Instructor myself. Brian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 1:15:11 GMT
Brian, thank you for adding a touch to my enlightenment, I truly am attempting to learn as much as I possibly can about not only the sword itself, as in how it is made, but also it's use. I'll admit right up front that I'm a backyard cutter, and while I do understand that there is no substitute for real instruction, I'm unable to find any place here that would teach one to use the Katana. There are Kendo classes, but when it comes to live steel, even Iato (sp?) there seems to be nothing at all in the entire Metro area. As someone who works in a fairly dangerous profession to begin with, I am completely cognizant of how quickly things can go bad. I keep this in mind even while I'm having a blast cutting mats, water bottles, or pool noodles. The more I can learn, no matter if it seems significant at the time or not, is something that I know I may need later.
Red John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 5:09:41 GMT
Hey Red, if you really want to get into the in's and outs of the japanese sword I can recommend a book called The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Yoshihara (national living treasure of japan) and Kapp. It maybe over kill for what you want to know, but a fascinating read all the same. Amazon usually have it in stock. On the subject of quality in Hanwei: if I run my fingers(with an oil rag) down the sides of my PPK blade I can feel bumps and hollows, not big but they are there, you wont (or shouldnt) find them on the higher price stuff, even Hanwei's dearer non folded stuff. Do they make a difference in cutting? I dont know, maybe if you were a serious competion cutter, but for back yard noodle slaying I think not.I have a cheness blade in shirasaya and its very smooth and well finished, I'm itching to get it mounted up
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 7:21:47 GMT
I'd add, as a bit of a knife geek, that many of those fancy Swedish steels are not clearly better for knife blades, and would be badly suited to many sorts of swords, as they can be extremely brittle. Many of them were developed for not just extreme hardness, but characteristics like wear resistance -- which is great if you need to chop up several dozen people between sharpenings, but makes putting an edge on them damned near impossible. It probably makes fantastic ball bearings in low-pressure applications, but my choice would be for a steel selected for toughness (superior Charpy values, for the dweebishly-minded). They are also vastly more expensive than many steels which are arguably at least as good.
You can get a really nice knife made of 440C or AUS-8 for under $80, or a similar model made with ZDP-189 for $800, and the biggest difference you'll ever notice is that the ZDP is an absolute bear to sharpen, rusts/corrodes more easily, and breaks more easily. (ZDP-189 is often laminated with other steels to partially work around the corrosion/brittleness problems, jacking the price up still more.) And who wants to break an $800 knife?
Anyway, this is perhaps slightly off-topic, since I don't know anything about the specifics of Bugei blades -- I'm sure they're quite nice -- I just thought I'd throw that out there, because too often, in the knife world, people get lured in by the latest fad in exotic, sexy and exhorbitant powdered steel, based on fairly outrageous claims by manufacturers. And I hope that that situation never spreads to the world of swords.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 7:27:45 GMT
Hey Ronin, I think I may already have that book, but as I've gone on a real spending binge on not only the swords I've purchased of late, but I literally walked through a Borders book store and purchased every single volume that even hinted at swords, metallurgy, and Japanese sword arts that I blew $432.56 on books alone in one day. Can we say "bibliophile"? The wife was not happy. I suppose this is why I'm forbidden to go back up to the mall without "adult" supervision. (read: wife making sure I am not spending more than we make on non-essentials.) I may have a slight tendency to over do the things I'm interested in. When you mentioned bumps or hollows in your PPK I pulled down my PK, and slowly ran my hands down the blade with my cleaning cloth, and found the same, but only on the back side of the blade, at the thickest part, but only toward the tip. Where the blade begins to narrow toward the hamon it feels completely straight. I would love to have a high end blade to compare it to...uh oh...no..must resist...must. not. bring. out. credit card...must...resist... Whew. That was close. I nearly became the first victim of his own Bugei Lion Dog swung by angry wife. Actually, I really do love both my PK, but also my Masahuri, as well as the Marshal sword and even the Dark Sentinel that I've given my wife. All of these lower end blades represent something to me that really stirs me as the more expensive blades fail to do. Perhaps it is because the more expensive a blade is, the more reluctant one would be to actually use it, thus actually defeating the purpose that a sword was created for: To be used. So yes, we all hang our heads a little bit and look vaguely ashamed when in the presence of someone who can afford to lay out two grand for a high end sword, and has the fortune to be close enough to a real quality training dojo to learn the proper techniques for wielding sharp shiny things. While we continue to set up our targets of Tatami mat, pool noodles and plastic milk jugs, and spend a weekend in the backyard joyfully engaging in out right destruction of things most of those in the sword world would be aghast at swinging a sword at. Mr. Paul Southren has saved us from our shame, and shown us that cutting things up with our under $300.00 swords is not only a fun thing to do, but that some of these blades are remarkably tough for their cost, and will resist some of the most brutal mistreatment that man can throw at it, and still be ready for more. Not only that, but these swords are indeed "real" swords, showing us in sometimes graphic detail the difference between our "beaters" and the truly cheap swords that are out there on the market masquerading as the real thing. Mr. Southren, whether he knows it or not has become an inspiration to many sword owners such as myself who have re-entered the world of live steel and the martial arts, or whom have just become aware of swords as functional pieces rather than something to hang on the wall and wish for. His examples of the "beater" sword will more than likely not create a group of people who are encouraged to bang away at unlikely targets, but who instead become so fascinated by the concept that real swords do exist that they begin, as I have, to research this on as many levels as they can find, and which seems to lead me at least, down a path that leads to respecting the blade, wishing to learn more of the art of the blade, and perhaps seeking out those who might teach the art of the blade to us. We owe an unrecognized debt to Paul Southren, the unofficial master of the beater sword, for not only showing us that our inexpensive swords are indeed capable of use, but for unwittingly leading us to a path that can not fail but instill in us a respect for the sword, and from there to a real learning of what the sword arts are. Our choices are made for a thousand different reasons, some financial, some made through pure ignorance, others made simply because we wished to own a real sword that we could use to "cut stuff up" but did not wish to spend X thousands of dollars on a sword that, in all honesty, was to be used to terrify pool noodles throughout the world. There are as many reasons for buying a beater sword as their are people. Personally, I purchased my PK by pure chance, I'd no clue that real swords were actually made on any kind of mass production level. It was a delight to discover a sword that I could practice with, even lacking any formal training outside of a few years of martial arts when I was younger. My discovery led to other purchases, and most likely, given my desire not to be strangled to death in my sleep by my wife, will continue at a slower and more affordable pace. Although, she has just as much fun as I do as a backyard cutter, and she is just so cute wielding deadly weaponry. Our interest in cutting stuff up in our backyard just may lead us, or myself at any rate, to moving on to desperate measures seeking someone who can actually train me in the use of not only my katana, but in the use of all types of swords. For this again, I thank Mr. Southren, if it were not for your example of what a "beater" sword is capable of, and your many links and guest reviews of several different types of swords that have graced the pages of your online magazine I would have never renewed my interest in all things long, shiny and sharp. In the meantime, I believe I'll be in my backyard, with my wife, seeing if we can really slice 10 plastic milk jugs in one go with our Paul Chen Katana's, or our Dark Sentinel, or perhaps the William Marshal broadsword...or perhaps I'll convince her that we really need to see if the Hanwei side sword is really as nice as the catalog claims it is.
Err, um...sorry..[/rant]
Red John
Edited to clarify a technical point.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 8:12:45 GMT
Red, dont hold back man, tell us what you think ;D Your lucky you have bookstores that carry sword books,I have to do all my buying on Amazon then waits weeks for them to arrive, the wait is sheer hell! I'm sure Paul will cofirm how pathetic our book stores are in Aus. its amazing how addictive blades can be,I bought a few SS wall hangers and thought I spent a lot of money at $60 ea, now I have swords worth a couple of thousand each! But I still love my beaters! btw have a look at the Hanwei Banshee, it was a toss up between the Sentinel and the Banshee for me and I chose the Banshee because it was shorter and not as pointy as the Sentinal. It makes a great hedge trimmer !
Hardy,I think theres a lot of people who would like to know what exactly is hanwei/Bugei's "swedish powder steel". I havnt polished it so I dont know how hard it is, but certainly makes a nice blade.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 8:28:00 GMT
*startled* The Banshee? I do not know of this item, and have not seen it in my catalog, is there a picture of it somewhere?
Red John
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 8:49:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 8:52:29 GMT
I think those pains I feel could be Mrs Red John sticking pins in her Ronin voodoo doll while Red scurries off to buy another sword ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 9:13:04 GMT
ohhhh. That's really pretty cool. But it seems like an awfully thin blade, even thiner than the Dark Sentinel, which struck me as very skinny. Have you cut with it? How heavy a target would you be willing to use with it? Does it flex much and do you know what the temper on the blade is? i.e, HRC 52, 48, 9? Oh, ouch...I think she may have two voodoo dolls up there in the bedroom....
Red John
edit: I looked at the stats on both the Dark Sentinel and the Banshee, and the Banshee is actually a thicker blade, but is way, way shorter than the Sentinel. I dunno, it's pretty cool, but then there is the side sword and the Qi Jian I'm also looking at...
Edit my edit, it seems the Banshee is out of stock anyway...(oh thank god)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2006 9:23:19 GMT
I have cut 4inch diameter 1/4inch wall carboard tubes with it. it took a few times to get the technique right but after that I slicing and dicing, I had some video footage of it but it left with ex's PC The leather wrap shifted a bit but its something I will replace one day (make that project number 6) Tell the Mrs , no fair heating the pins up!
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