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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 4:46:28 GMT
Stupid question, but I don't know. Whats the difference between pattern welded and Damascus?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 4:55:57 GMT
Damascus is a crucible steel, for which we have lost the method of the making and believed to have originated in the middle east in ancient times. Pattern welded is different steels forge welded together to create patternation and is for the most part purely aesthetic
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 4:59:11 GMT
Either everything or nothing, depending on who you ask. Pattern WeldedDamascus SteelI think you would have to do a good bit of reading for yourself to get a decent understanding of it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 5:57:26 GMT
If I am not mistaken, (I most likely am ) Can't metal properties be tested? how is it that a forging process couldn't be recreated? Assuming of course there are artifacts to be examined. I don't mean to sound stupid, I just don't know about this stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 7:10:09 GMT
We know the properties of the crucible steel produced and made famous in Damascus, and we can recreate it (and better), but the exact method of how *they* produced it is not precisely known.
Keep in mind, a good portion of what seemed to be important in refining and smithing -then- is mumbo-jumbo now.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 7:34:11 GMT
Here's an analogy: you can analyze a cake to see what it's made of, and you can figure out how to make another cake that results as being nearly or even exactly the same, but you can't be certain that you're doing it exactly the same way as the person who made the first cake did, even if the results are the same, because there may be more than one way to get the same results.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 13:30:26 GMT
Until I started researching for myself, I believed the two to be one and the same. Now, I know the difference- thanks in part to the folks on SBG.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 14:43:00 GMT
Damascus is a crucible steel, for which we have lost the method of the making and believed to have originated in the middle east in ancient times. Pattern welded is different steels forge welded together to create patternation and is for the most part purely aesthetic I wouldn't say it's purely aesthetic, that is depending on the time frame your referencing. The reason they did it back then, as far as I know, is that they needed to combine a much harder steel, one better capable of retaining an edge, with a softer steel that wouldn't be so quick to break under stress. Before they got the hang of mono steel the swords would either take a set as noted in Norse sagas where the swords had to be bent back in to shape during battle, or would be brittle and break during use. Now adays I'd say it's more of a research thing and as Bloodwraith said it's aesthetic cause we can take a bar of L6 and grind and heat treat it to a wonderfully working sword or what have you. Back then though it was mostly about business. They certainly adorned their weapons but at the end of the day if it didn't work it was just so much scrap for the forge.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 28, 2009 15:48:29 GMT
Wootz up now guys? Another one of them there dam ass cuss discussions? The more one looks, the more articles will come up regarding it and a continuing study. Wootz, bulat and other crucible steels of the past were a fairly specific methodology. As are even modern crucible and cast steels. One of those that appeared rather unexpectedly in a sword recently in my rack. An American patented a cast steel process in the early 1800s. I say it unexpectedly appeared in my hands because of a quite striking similarity to my yataghan (which was made of a crucible steel). Of the older crucible steels from the near east, it was not just the methodology but mix (as mentioned in the cake recipe post) and ther are folk out there such as Ric Furrer that would disagree that the secrects have been lost, never to be remade. There are quite a few (quite mad/looney in a good way) smiths playing around with the stuff. The term of damascus related to a market, not an origin of the material. While any patterned blade has come to be accepted on a wide scope as refered to as damascus, few of the serious smiths and makers will refer to it as such. This last piece in was really kind of a suprise to me, as it wasn't apparent at all until excavating down through the layer of crud. It was the etch of the oxidation itself that made it quite clear what I am looking at. o anyway, a sword blade of steel made that shows dendrites wootz does but done in what was probably not quite the same oven, recipe and methodology of the mystic wootz (nor was my yataghan done truly wootzy). Cheers Hotspur; this one was another find at the SBG price pointAttachments:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 17:00:53 GMT
is envious of hotspur's lovely yat
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Aug 28, 2009 18:09:56 GMT
I never realized that 'damascuss' can be broken down into 'dam' 'as' 'cus' which Hotspur brilliantly extended into 'dam' 'ass' 'cuss'.
Priceless... ;D
-Slayer
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Post by hotspur on Aug 28, 2009 19:32:47 GMT
Then there are the pretty nifty folded blades of later European smiths, that actually continue to this day. It was very much the word damascus that represents what the makers were doing to emulate the finer (and yes, those were often folded for pattern as as well) wootz blades. This little length of what is left of a re-hafted 18th century smallsword (also at SBG price) shows some very precise steel manipulation that emulates the wootz pattern in an almost exacting visual, although manipulated and not what wootz could offer without further folding. Cheers Hotspur; that yat was not much more than the high end of SBG guidelines and I continue to revel in finding nice and less expensive antiquesAttachments:
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Post by hotspur on Aug 28, 2009 19:43:14 GMT
The smallsword blade has some other tricks as well, with fine line etching and some interesting grinding. Attachments:
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Post by hotspur on Aug 28, 2009 19:49:07 GMT
Of course, since such a short slim companion needs a counterpart, the MRL batch of $99 rapiers fit the bill. Twisted inlaid on a fluted bone grip. A little dab of silver plating on that brass pommel fit right in. Attachments:
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Post by hotspur on Aug 28, 2009 20:14:10 GMT
The yataghan, while not truly wootz (it's a geographical mineral/element difference more than anything) does show pretty clearly the dendrites apparent in old school crucible and some cast blade properties. I would suggest folk learn to dismiss the word damascus entirely but it is a bit like whether to demand metric of sae standards, or even imperial gallons There are scores of up to date articles on the properties of true wootz and other quite similar sealed smelted processes. Let the knife market understand the term damascus to relate folded and the more serious spathologists (which any could hope sword enthusiasts would understand) think in terms of wootz, bulat and other descriptions for the old school crucibles. [/img] This last of those similar is what true wootz often looks like and the above of my yataghan blade. It had rested at an unknowing dealer's site for several years while I waited to buy it. Again, bought at relative peanuts compared to what some reach. Cheers Hotspur; the grip was a fine find in being intact as well. Really a feature I have enjoyed as much as the blade itself Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2009 20:48:39 GMT
I never realized that 'damascuss' can be broken down into 'dam' 'as' 'cus' which Hotspur brilliantly extended into 'dam' 'ass' 'cuss'. Priceless... ;D -Slayer Ah, but I see you missed the 'Wootz up' reference.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2009 17:04:37 GMT
Alrighty, I did some looking around and some research, I think I better understand the difference now. Thanks to all who gave input, it helped a bunch.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2009 19:19:30 GMT
okay...
And what is crucible steel?
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Post by sicheah on Aug 31, 2009 5:45:47 GMT
Found this at SFI in the stickies at "Metallurgy Studies Q&A Forum"
For those interested in knowing more about metallurgy, I really recommend visiting the Metallurgy Q&A sub-forum at SFI
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Post by hotspur on Aug 31, 2009 23:08:51 GMT
okay... And what is crucible steel? Somewhat self explanatory. Think of a crucibles for making steel somewhat like a mixed pot. Conversely, the Japanese tatara method and with some other furnace arrangments, the fire is in the pot instead of simply supplying heat. The wootz type arrangment is a closed system. Not really a pressure cooker but a closed system where ingredients are capped and then assembled together in intense heat. Modern industrial steel manufacture is pretty much steel mixed in crucibles then poured and formed (forged). Click Here For Crucible SteelI am hardly an authority on steel production and history but an awful lot of information is wide open for investigation and learning at one's own pace shouldn't really be a huge hurdle unless they really do want to shop the fast food drive-thru. I can appreciate that some prefer that but when there is so much available for easy reading, it really does make me wonder what teachers offer and expect from shcools in the modern era. Here is a possibly fun one and relates both primitive and modern methodologies for smelting. It is certainly not the only branch of possibilities, nor directly associates the the original premise with Damascus. Still, a good read for the interested. www.idsa.org/webmodules/Articles/articlefiles/ed_conference02/30.pdfCheers Hotspur; So anyway, a crucible by any name can still be refered to as a pot, covered or not.
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