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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 18:03:50 GMT
As for the .223 analogy...well it IS the best weapon for what modern warfare demands. We no longer need to kill our enemies. We can incapacitate them without killing...which is optimal for war. Have you ever seen someone hit by a .223? It doesn't incapacitate with a center-mass hit. It does MASSive damage to the inside. A .30 may be the best at blowing big holes in people and dropping them on their backsides (given the weight and recoil of larger calibres), but you can survive that hit. Taking a gut shot from a .223 will tear up every organ in the location of the hit. It really is among the best for killing. Taran, I do not agree that the sword is all symbol. I think it's effectiveness and versatility are well documented. Still, the forgiving nature and overall deadliness of the mace can not be denied. It demands consideration. No. The sword is not all symbol. Nor is that what I said. It has always Been a symbol, but its usefulness and effectiveness cannot be discounted. No symbol can become so universal without it. However, there has also never been a time when there wasn't a more practical weapon. As for a shield, I won't include one in my survival kit. They are too easy to make.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 18:18:51 GMT
The FMJ .223 isnĀ“t that bad...barring vital organ hit. Any HP/SP rifle round will do massive amounts of damage...but that is why military rounds are FMJ.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 19:53:08 GMT
Whoa whoa whoa. Rails folks. Sorry I even mentioned it. We can start this as a separate topic in a separate forum, if you like, but, uh, it's been done. Here I'm more interested to know if Napalm agrees that swords are nostly symbolic, and if so, to what extent do they have combat utility, if at all?
Update: just saw your reply, Taran, so same question to you: What is the combat utility of a sword in your view? What is its role?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 21:29:28 GMT
what a vivid imgaination but to be logical the world would probably end in nuclear war and it would definently be scorched earth and nothing left but to humor i would want to carry 2 wakizashis for defense and manuverability. you would probably be doing alot of running from the cannibal zombie hordes and a larger sword would slow you down and hinder your movement i would carry one zashi on my back and one at the hip maybe. more than likely if your talking about being a lone survivor in a world of zombies a sword aint gonna do semprini no matter how good it is. remeber you have to seperate the head form the body or cause severe damage to the brain to kill a zombie so hmm.... 223. to the head or hacking and slashing till your arm gives out. you choose. and more than likely guns would be readily avalible we currently have more than enough weapons in this country to arm every citizen i would imagine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 21:39:43 GMT
Have you ever seen someone hit by a .223? It doesn't incapacitate with a center-mass hit. It does MASSive damage to the inside. A .30 may be the best at blowing big holes in people and dropping them on their backsides (given the weight and recoil of larger calibres), but you can survive that hit. Taking a gut shot from a .223 will tear up every organ in the location of the hit. It really is among the best for killing. Why would a round designed and chosen by NATO for its propensity to wound rather than kill be among the best for killing?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 22:19:32 GMT
The Air Force. Chosen by the Air Force. But stay on topic, Mr. West!
SWORDS, darn it! And possibly maces, hammers, and axes! Not bullets. This is not a bullet forum. (My carefully cultivated thread is grown to maturity and beginning to put out runners.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2009 23:57:14 GMT
Single ultimate survival weapon of choice is a very difficult question to answer, given that I don't know if it's people or zombies, or ornery animals ranging in size from rabid mouse to crazed polar bear. So, in creating a survival kit, I would include a weapon for each scenario.
Versus Animals A spear. A good six foot long spear would do the trick. Charged by a bear? Spear its head. Charged by a bunny? Try to get off the floor before it nibbles its vicious teeth through the shoes, and stab it with a spear. Charged by the bunny from Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail? Off goes your head. Anyways, if you have a spear, you're probably going to be relatively safe from non-zombie disease carrying animals.
Versus Humans I would take an Ox Tail Dao and a fairly good sized shield. The Dao fairly light, it's maneuverable, and would slice through flesh and clothing alike with relative ease. Against someone with some modern body armor? Regardless of what weapon they have, in a mele situation, if they don't have a shield, you almost certainly have the upper hand. Shield bash them, and if they fall, cut anywhere there's no armor protecting them.
Versus Zombies - Human I would take a Falcata and a good sized shield. The falcata is small, and a brilliant head-busting weapon. Use the shield to keep them at bay whilst you one by one split their heads open. Be sure to be covered from head to toe in some kind of leather or other material that they can't just rip or bite though.
Versus Zombies - Human and Animal Nowhere is safe. Nothing you can do will keep you alive for as long as you would like to think. Wherever there's water that is safe to drink, there will be zombie animals or people. In this situation, I would be sure to have my leather gear to keep the bites of humans off, but one would also need at the very least some kind of plate armor covering most of the body. I would take a large shield, and a rapier, and do my best to not get swarmed. Single opponents take a thrust to the head, hopefully ceasing their brain function, but if you get ran down by a zombie bear, you dead. And if in the middle of the night, you get bit by a zombie mosquito or a zombie spider, you dead. I might switch rapier for a gladius, but overall the survivability is the same. You'll find an opponent you can't hold off, and you die. Ka - Doom.
So, in the stockpile, I put a spear, an oxtail dao, a falcata, a gladius, and a rapier.
I know, it didn't answer the question completely, but I think it's a fair response.
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Post by genocideseth on Aug 23, 2009 0:12:08 GMT
Well in that case (To original topic re-brought up) I vote, for myself, something that can stab, chop, single handed, light, but blade forward. And tough. I am guessing this may or may not go to the Chinese Willow Leaf Saber. I prefer it to the ox tail. But I have never handled one to know.
Also a spear. Nearly forgot till I saw Tajims post.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 1:15:01 GMT
Kajim, your analysis is good, but a different tool for every job is not a "survival" concept. The rules of this game are that you have a Bug Out Kit, and it looks like this. You're trying to fill that last slot at the bottom. If you want, you can customize or replace other slots, but you have to work within the confines of an efficient survival kit that can go with you into the wilds. Essentials and multitaskers only.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 1:48:22 GMT
I've been thinking about the Zombie Apocalypse. What I have noticed is that a shield is an essential element of any kit in a zombie infested world. The tactics of the zombie can be divided by speed: slow zombies versus fast zombies. The attack is essentially the same but the fast zombies leave the warrior with fewer options. The shield would be used to break the zombie's attack to create an opening for the head shot. Additionally, the infectious nature of the zombie requires some safety gear, such as face visors and 100% coverage with zombie resistant armor. Zombie anatomy typically requires a head shot to fully kill it. Some mythology states that spinal hits will kill, while other sources indicate that a spinal hit will cause paralysis.
Considering this, our martial arts style will need to focus upon head attacks, with supplemental attacks on limbs. Torso hits, while easier, will probably have a lesser effect upon the creature. Attacks on the legs would be used to slow down the zombie and arm hits would reduce its attack capability.
Armor:
Large shield such as a round Greek shield. It would need some sort of metal band so it could be used in smashing attacks...gotta kill those crawlers!
Greaves and leg armor would be essential in a close quarters press in a building or narrow alley. The durability of the armor would be dictated by zombie strength. Perhaps leather brigadine armor over padded leather would be sufficient. I'm thinking my kit would consist of greaves, leg armor, chainmail, chainmail coif, helm, shield and gauntlets. Modern technology may be useful here. I have seen SCA armor built from kevlar wrapped in boiled leather for an incredibly light and tough set of armor. Any helmets would require throat protection as well as a clear face visor. I am already physically fit, so the most difficult part would be breaking in the armor to become comfortable with it. I would accomplish this by training in the armor after wearing it around the house for some time.
Weapons:
I would definitely carry an eight flanged mace and fight from behind the shield. A Spartan Lakonian would be great for chopping limbs and so forth in the press. A Cold Steel Gun Stock Club or slightly modified Indian War Club would make a great (and light) skull crusher. I'd probably just get the Windlass Classic Hoplite Sword and call it good.
I thought about spears, but they seem to require two hands. I guess an overhead thrust would be the order of the day behind a shield. The problem I can see is that slashes are meant to cause bleed out...and zombies don't bleed! So, we're back to crushing bones. Maces do this really well considering they were used to crush heavy plate armor.
Training:
Finally, I would need to consider my training. I have trained in knives with Tom Sotis and Larry Lindenman. I do guns. Many of the techniques that I use are very similar between hand, knife and gun. One system with many applications. The short sword would most clearly work with the moves I currently have. While the sword reduces the options for the technique/move, it does increase damage. I believe that maces, flails and clubs would require less training...something to think about considering most survivors will have very few combat skills. I like the maces and clubs because they lack any particular striking surface...smaller chance of messing up. If a shot goes wild and hits a friend or yourself, hopefully it'll be a glancing blow. Where a sword will slice, a mace may just bounce off.
The "pool" of one handed weapons that I think would work well include:
Short sword War Club (and variations) (Colt Steel Gun Stock War Club is only 22 oz!) One handed Hammer Mace Tomahawk or light ax Shield bash Flail/morning star Gauntleted fist with some sort of brass knuckles
All this needs to be supported with silenced firearms. I'd go with a heavier bullet since they tend to deflect less off bone (200+ grains).
So, given the choice, I'd go with:
Glock 21 (over a standard 1911 or SIG P220 due to 13+1 capacity. I'd like an SVI...drool...drool) Kult of Athena Mace (probably one of the 16th century models...600+ years can't be wrong) Spartan Lakonian short sword (short & fast hacking that fits within my martial arts paradigm) Ka-Bar knife with 6"+ blade Folding knife with 5" blade
Rifles are available, but outside the scope of the discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 2:08:48 GMT
Update: just saw your reply, Taran, so same question to you: What is the combat utility of a sword in your view? What is its role? Oh, it has a great deal of combat utility. It wouldn't have survived without it. But that utility is significantly reduced when it is pitted against armour. Against unarmoured opponents, it'll match or even beat any other melee weapon; so using it against humans now or in the immediate aftermath of the collapse of civilization you would be well served by your blade. Unless you have to do significant damage to skulls to stop your foe (zombies). Or until your foes figure out the armour thing. Which is why I want the mace. What was its role in ancient combat? Sidearm and symbol. Symbol of station or of skill or of anything else a particular culture may have revered. Those of you planning to take shields, think of how heavy and cumbersome a large shield is. You're going to have that ready to go at a moment's notice? You're going to sprint and otherwise Flee carrying it? In addition to your weapons and your backpack of food, water and ammo? Seriously? Right at the beginning of this entire collapse when firearms are plentiful and ammunition moreso? Riiiight...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 3:51:56 GMT
I dont think a sheild would be practical for carrying but if you had a base of operations it may be a usefull device for either fending it off or when leaving and for the type I personally think that I would go for a modern tactical shield
also I thought Id through a weapon in there how about halberds ? They have an extensive reach, and an excellent combination of crushing cutting and piercing ability definitely a Great all round weapon and I think one of the best for zombie combat
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 5:49:37 GMT
Thank you, Taran. That's a thoughtful and considered analysis. It's helpful. Also, I noticed that you made a great point almost in passing at the top of this thread. Aside from swords, many of the weapons and other tools we're discussing here will still be easily manufacturable--at least in facsimile, in an indefinite (tier 4) survival situation. Shields, clubs, and armor can be MadMaxed into existence out of locally procured materials. A good sword not so much, simply because I, for one, don't have the necessary skills, whereas the construction of a hammer, mace, or axe is a little more straightforward.
Hairu, a few people have mentioned spears and other polearms/pollarms. They definitely have their uses, but the consensus to date is that they're not a personal defense weapon so much as a battle weapon, useful in defending a fortified position or as part of a group, but either way more geared to full battle dress than to survival dress.
--For combat, anyway. As hunting tools, they're outstanding, and highly recommended. In fact, in my survival class, one of our instructor's major recommendations was to set about crafting a spear as soon as we have our priorities covered. Remember, in a bail-out scenario, we have only tier 1 and tier 2 gear, so the only steel weapon we have is our survival knife. No axe or hatchet in the kit. Most "ejectees" quickly come up with ways to either bind the knife to the end of a rod or else use it to whittle sharp the end of a rod, so that they have another, larger, more formidable anti-wildlife tool available.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 10:09:35 GMT
I would pick Han Wie Da dao for the long term struggle survive against Zombie . Tough. The wide blade with 22 1/4 inches with suffiecient tang for 2 hand grip left nothing to break off or chip .The primarily use will be slashing and beheading the target with occasionally chopping motion at the shoulder blade or hip area in case of emergency .The blade is tough enough to withstand repeatedly cut against bone .The fabric construction of handle will disintergrate in time but I can wrap them up with any fabric I find along the way . Sharp. It comes from factory with keen edge and with little bit work on stone and sand paper I can bring the edge up to almost razor sharp but I would probably not going to keep it razor sharp to avoid the edge chipping Deadly. A well execute slash will take off the head of opponent but the sword is light enough to perform multiple cut and with good foot work and the flow of the blade this sword can engage multiple opponent rather effectively Long. with 22 1/4 inches blade , 141/4 inches handle and 2 pounds 5 ounces, this sword has sufficient reach to keep the opponent at bay and the user out of opponent 's knife and other type of handheld weapon reach Nimble. The blade is the lenght of wakizashi which is prefered indoor sword for Japanese for centuries so this sword is suiteable for indoor as well as out door .It is light and quick so any surprise attack can be counter quickly .Some movement and form for close quarter fight can be apply (such as grabbing the back of the blade using off hand instead of two hand grip to push the blade into opponent and create distance for executing slash. The blade has enough mass to parry or bang away the opponent's weapon for counter move . Light. at 2 pounds 5 ounces this sword is light enough for long distance march or hike into the wood . The only draw back is the nylon sheath is not suitable for carry and the simple tight 2 string around top and bottom and attach to the sling will not allow the rapid deployment of the sword .So I guess if I don't have time to modify the scabbard I will have to unsheath it when I feel the threat is near and imminent . By the way , if I am the successful attorney I would convince one of the newly hire fresh out of lawschool to guard the paper work for me with promise of making him a next partner of the firm ,may be I would convince a couple of interns to stay too
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 11:10:23 GMT
Ancient: You keep talking about the carry and the difficulties we observe. Do you have specific needs for these weapons? You mention in the survival knife thread that you have certain weight restrictions and such? Is that in play here as well? Or are you talking in general? In general what I would be doing for my ultimate survival sword is getting onto Jim Hrisoulas and getting a 25 inch straight sabre mounted on a 15 inch handle without no guard, go tactical and made of L6. That way the blade can be thinner and lighter making it easier to carry, however being short and long handled it makes it extremely effective and with a straight sabre blade it can be used like a spear as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 13:02:32 GMT
I forgot all about the knife that is included in the kit. If we can have a knife, I would want one of cold steel's combat bowie knifes or a survival knife of similar design. If you are in very close quarters, just use the knife. That leaves me more options for a primary weapon, since the knife can be used for close quarters and grappling. I like Taran's idea of a mace, but I probably would not use one because you have to swing it at someone and you can't really stab (a short spike on the end would be a good idea, though) that great from what I know about maces. I would still use a sword of some type.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 13:06:48 GMT
Is the knife supposed to be a survival knife or a fighting knife?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 13:16:51 GMT
I don't know, but I don't see why it couldn't be both, since a fixed blade knife will always be better for survival than a folding knife.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2009 13:42:17 GMT
they serve different functions and have different physics, different balances. A true fighting knife and a true survival knife are two different animals, at least they are in my experience.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 23, 2009 16:32:16 GMT
Ah... late to the party, as usual. How did I miss this for TEN PAGES?! Ancient, to focus solely on your initial question about a "survival" sword, I would fall back on my definition of a "tactical" sword. It is a secondary or tertiary weapon in the modern context. That is, if you follow current doctrine in transition training. Ideally the primary is a long gun. The secondary is hopefully a handgun. When those stop, the knife or in this case, sword is transitioned to. In order for that to work well, the sword must be readily accessible on the person and be able to be deployed with a single hand... an absolute must in a CQB/CQC environment. That severely limits the length of the blade. And it also limits the length of the grip to an extent not realized by anyone who has never tried to "go about their day" while wearing a sword. Long handles have a great propensity to snag or otherwise encumber the wearer. Of course, it's an imperfect world. To assume the the long gun and handgun are always available would be to plan for failure. So in some cases, if the sword is available then it may become a primary weapon. At least it is until you can make a spear or bow-and-arrows. For the various scenarios described, a sword seems to me to require something I have not seen mentioned (though it may have been somewhere in the preceding 9 pages), that being "handiness" of a sorts, as well as effectiveness. If it isn't convenient to have on your person, at least most of the time while engaging in "survival activities", then it really isn't going to be much use when you need it... and it's propped in a corner somewhere because it got in the way. I have been struggling with this dilemma for the last 2-3 years. I don't have "The Answer", but so far this is my best attempt at answering the question. Angus Trim Tactical Willowleaf I didn't really pick the Willowleaf. I just wanted to try out one of Gus Trim's tactical swords, and a Willowleaf was in-stock. I got this sword from Sonny Suttles of Valiant Armoury just after he took over selling out the rest of the Tactical Line stock from Christian Fletcher. Initially, there were plans for this stock to be used as prototypes for a Valiant Armoury Chinese-made Tactical line of swords. But the whole "tactical sword" thing seemed to die for lack of interest. If enough people were to ask for them and be willing to actually buy them, I would bet Sonny might revive the idea. In any case, I have become very attached to this particular sword. The blade length is 27 inches to clear a scabbard. I have fairly short arms but I can easily and quickly clear a scabbard mounted in the "arrow quiver position" over my right shoulder, strapped to a molle vest. The entire hilt protrudes from the scabbard 8 inches, so it doesn't really get in the way very much in every-day-type activities. And the scabbard/blade is short enough that sitting in, and entering/exiting a vehicle is not awkward. When it comes to handling and performance, this is probably one of the... if not THE best swords I have ever used. It weighs barely 2 lbs, but when properly sharpened can easily cut triple-rolls of tatami mat and double mats wound around a 1" hardwood dowel. Also, since if is basically a blade blank with grip slabs, it is as close to indestructible as I can imagine a sword being. I am very happy with it, to the point that I probably have more confidence with this sword than any other I have ever seen. As for getting one... that's a potential problem. There are some available on the 2nd hand market. If I wanted another, I would keep an eye on the market boards on SFI and myArmoury. As to the models and their names, don't get hung up on them. There are basically just 3 blade designs in the ATrim tactical line. There's this one, which is basically a saber. There is a straight double-edged design. And there is a curved katanaesque/saberish design. All the various models are variations on one of those three themes. They all seem to work well. I suggest choosing from what's available based on the length of blade as the primary consideration. So there's my "more than 2 cents worth" on this topic. Kinda wordy, but that's the point huh?
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