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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 5:32:33 GMT
Hello all, I just watched the old Christopher Lambert movie, "The Hunted", for the umpteenth time. Great movie by the way. Anyway, the good guy, a modern martial arts instructor who descends from a long line of Samarai, and his students all used a curved katana. The bad guy/s, a Ninja cult called the Nakata or something like that, used straight bladed ones. I have noticed these straight bladed katanas used by Ninjas and curved ones used by Samarai in other sources. Why did the one group use curved katanas and the Ninjas the straight ones? Just preference? Tradition? Law? Or what? It seems to me the curved ones would be better suited for all round use as they would be more suited to cutting along with thrusting.
Anyone got any info or ideas as to the straight or curved katana question? Thanks, Freebooter
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Insane
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Post by Insane on Jun 15, 2009 6:03:42 GMT
The straight blade or Ninja-to is a hollywood thing. There is no record of a historical replica of the ones you see in movies.
There are a lot of disscusions on the web about this subject.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 6:24:30 GMT
Thanks Insane. I did not know that the straight type of katana was a modern hollywood thing. That cleared it up for me. FB
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 7:36:27 GMT
Thanks Insane. I did not know that the straight type of katana was a modern hollywood thing. That cleared it up for me. FB No, it´s not that straight japanese swords are an invention of Hollywood. I think there are no disagreement(?) that straight types of swords where used earlier, before, the curved katanas. Some kind of predecessor you might say... At least to the 900´s after what I can understand, (search on the net for Kiriha zukuri), but later was used mostly only for ceremonial purposes. But the exact ninja swords on film (whatever now that is) could perhaps be said to be an invention of Hollywood. -- here are a page you can read about japanese sword shapes: www.geocities.com/alchemyst/sugata/shape.htm
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 16:26:59 GMT
I disagree. There's more to the hollywood straight katana than a replica of the earlier chokuto styles almost completely identical to the chinese jian which was what japanese swords came from. For example, the typical "ninjato" has an almost perfect square tsuba, unlike the squarish, historical ones, and generally a black same.
But anyway, is there any proof that ninja actually existed at all? I know it wasn't in the form of black pyjamas guys, but from a discussion with a pretty knowledgable guy I had I got the impression that even the hafted-sword-in-standard-saya, normal clothing and "Bujinkan" type had no proven claim.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 16:35:38 GMT
I disagree. There's more to the hollywood straight katana than a replica of the earlier chokuto styles almost completely identical to the chinese jian which was what japanese swords came from. For example, the typical "ninjato" has an almost perfect square tsuba, unlike the squarish, historical ones, and generally a black same. But anyway, is there any proof that ninja actually existed at all? I know it wasn't in the form of black pyjamas guys, but from a discussion with a pretty knowledgable guy I had I got the impression that even the hafted-sword-in-standard-saya, normal clothing and "Bujinkan" type had no proven claim. It baffles me that people actually doubt the existence of Ninja. By that means, do you also doubt the existence of the Ismaili assassins? Do you doubt Snipers, Navy SEALS? There's hundreds and hundreds of historic, antique "Ninja" weapons. Weapons and tools designed for espionage like tasks. There's even historical accounts of well known Samurai hiring the services of "ninja." Whether or not they actually wore black clothing or not, beats me, but I imagine they wore something similar if they were tasked with a night time "mission." I don't understand what's so hard to believe that Assassins existed in Japan. They've existed everywhere else in the world.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 17:29:32 GMT
I would assume that ninja were samurai who were contracted out to assassinate key figures; as far as I can believe, they would look no different than anyone else- as they were probably samurai they'd have the same style of dress for their station.
The pajama-clad warriors of Hollywood notwithstanding, I do believe they existed; assassinations can be read about far, far back into antiquity in almost every culture you can name...
But since none of us were around back then, you should take what you read with a grain of salt.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 18:35:51 GMT
I disagree. There's more to the hollywood straight katana than a replica of the earlier chokuto styles almost completely identical to the chinese jian which was what japanese swords came from. For example, the typical "ninjato" has an almost perfect square tsuba, unlike the squarish, historical ones, and generally a black same. What do you disagree with? (the quote function has it advantages, try it sometime) and what do you mean? That ninja swords on movies are more historically verified than the old type straight swords? (and I´m probably worse on this language than I thought).. My comment was to this, which sounds like all straight japanese swords are Hollywood inventions, and nothing else; Thanks Insane. I did not know that the straight type of katana was a modern hollywood thing. That cleared it up for me. FB
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 18:40:11 GMT
I have read that the straight blade was traditionally worn on the back of the ninjas. Its not only straight but slightly shorter than traditional katanas. The reasons for this were that 1) it was easier to conceal and 2) it was easier to unsheathe a sword on your back if it is shorter and straight.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 18:50:56 GMT
I have read that the straight blade was traditionally worn on the back of the ninjas. Its not only straight but slightly shorter than traditional katanas. The reasons for this were that 1) it was easier to conceal and 2) it was easier to unsheathe a sword on your back if it is shorter and straight. That's nonsense. THAT is hollywood ninja crap, Ninja supposedly used Shortened katana, like a ko-katana and wore it like normal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 19:23:03 GMT
akasekai, where'd you read that? I'm interested to know...only because what you've written is almost spot on for what Hollywood has attributed to the ninja since the 80s when there was an explosion of ninja movies headlined by the likes of Sho Kosugi and uhh...Michael Dudikoff.
Plus, I beg to differ that it is easier to unsheathe a sword on your back that you cannot see than a sword that you CAN see on your hip, regardless of the length of the blade. If that were so, everyone would carry their wakis on their back, yes?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 19:25:30 GMT
I just finished reading a book called "The Way of the Samurai" kind of a historical look at the Japanese culture from the perspective of samurai. On the topic of Ninja(about 2 pages) it said they were basically spies and assasins. Samurai would actualy hire them to do their dirty work, as doing such tasks would cause dishonor to the samurai. And dishonoring yourself as a samurai, basically meant death. This sounds very reasonable to me and I can see this being true. Spies have always existed, along with the various arts and skills to go with it. How accurate some of the hollywood portrayal is, I don't know, but historical, cultural logic says they most likely existed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 19:48:05 GMT
I'm saying that a "ninjato" is not a replica of the Chukoto, it has, for example, untraditional fittings and is quite different. Basically the only thing they share is a straight blade, and I doubt that the Hollywood swords had as much though behind them as them being inspired by Chokuto would require.
And my comment was because (to me) it sounded like you meant that ninjato were the same as Chokuto.
I do not doubt that Japanese assasins using logic existed in feudal Japan. I doubt that they had special swords, used special martial arts and 90% of the information and lore on them that exists.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 15, 2009 19:51:12 GMT
akasekai, where'd you read that? I'm interested to know...only because what you've written is almost spot on for what Hollywood has attributed to the ninja since the 80s when there was an explosion of ninja movies headlined by the likes of Sho Kosugi and uhh...Michael Dudikoff. On the nose, this. One doesn't need to see what one can feel. But wearing a sword on one's back is neither better for concealment (strap a steel rod to your back and try to hide it) nor any other purpose than wearing it on the hip. A normal-sized Japanese man could probably draw a normal-sized Japanese sword just as easily from either place, with enough practice. Another historic note, as Japan grew peaceful, the katana grew straighter; some old swords from this era were practically, if not, straight. Could just be a mistake in judgement on [hollywood director]'s part that just caught on. Not that a straight sword would have been particularly out of place or undesirable in parts of Japan during certain periods...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 19:53:33 GMT
And my comment was because (to me) it sounded like you meant that ninjato were the same as Chokuto. Don´t know about sounds but that was not what I wrote;)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 20:12:05 GMT
How so? I've gotten the impression that people feel it's "weird" to cut with ninjato? I suppose it's because straight swords are usually either double-edged (Crucifix sword, Viking sword, Jian), or far wider and shorter (like a Dao, Dah, Viking sword or Messer.)
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 15, 2009 20:21:40 GMT
That's just because they're not used to cutting with straight swords.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 22:01:02 GMT
Hello all, I have another question about "The Hunted". But before I get to it, let me say I am no historian or am an expert on what Hollywood uses, produces, or portrays. But I do know that I think katanas are just good, plain out bad-arsed! The are neat, whether straight or curved, round or square guards, etc.. Although I personally like a curved blade. My katana is one I bought from MRL about three years ago. It is sharp as a razor and cuts right through those rolled up matt things like butter! But I have no idea who made it or what it is called. That model was discontinued around the time I bought it or shortly there after.
But to my question: At the end when the bad guy and good guy were back to back, the bad guy ran his sword through the lower back, side to side, of the samarai. In turn, the Samarai stuck the sword he was using into the thigh of the bad guy. Then the good guy, the Samarai, died after a bit of wobbling around, his last words being he would be waiting for Kinjo in hell. Did Kinjo's sword go through the Samarai's kidneys or something? It did not look like a wound that would have killed him that quickly? Any ideas or info from you who are more knowledgable in the medical field or field of wounds would be appreciated. Thanks, Freebooter Alabama
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 15, 2009 22:12:57 GMT
Could be the kidneys, could be the spine, could be hollywood drama. Could be just about anything.
I'll defer to anybody who's actually seen the scene and knows what "really" happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2009 22:36:58 GMT
LOL Yea I own the movie and watched it a few times. As random said, it could have hit any number of locations, but propbably not the lungs as low as that thrust was. But through and through belly wounds tend to cause A LOT of internal bleeding, which usually leads to death unless it gets treated and patched up pretty quick. Other then the "hollydrama" effect, we'll just say he could have passed out from the pain/shock of the wounds. Knowing he was on a small private island, where pretty much everyone involved died, it was night, and not going to get medical treatment before bleeding out; he gave his final death curse "see you in hell".
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