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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2009 23:31:43 GMT
A lot.
Depends on how big your rings are. I Want to say that the average is about as big around as a penny or a dime, maybe, but I don't fight in Chain (don't like the weight or the look), so don't quote me.
I'd say, make a few dozen test rings to see if you like the size and look of them and go from there.
And, yes, sadly, 20k does seem like a reasonable number of rings. I'm making scale armour and looking at 1500-2500 scales and those are a lot bigger than chainmail rings...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 2:08:29 GMT
It would almost be just as cheap to buy a suit of chainmail as it would be to make one, unless 16 gauge steel wire is really cheap.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 2:20:38 GMT
Well, if you're just going to buy butted or twisted maille, then sure. That's the way I would go. That quality chain just isn't worth the hassle involved, imo.
If you want the good stuff (really, you want the good stuff), better do it yourself or save your pennies for a long time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 2:38:18 GMT
I wasn't going to make butted or twisted, I was just going to make the simple kind. On youtube there are a few videos showing you how to make chainmail easily. I wasn't planning on anything fancy, just plain and easy to make (but time consuming).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 3:09:15 GMT
butted and twisted ARE the simple kinds.
Butted is REALLY easy. You buy a bunch of split washers (by the pound. They cost less that way) and connect them. Matter of fact, doing butted maille that way would probably be cheap enough to be worth the hassle...
Butted is just that the ends of the rings come together to make a full ring. There's no actual connection to close the ring. Twisted, you take the ends and twist them around each other. Only other form of chainmail I'm family with is riveted. Where you rivet each individual ring closed.
I'm sure you could epoxy the rings closed or do any number of other things, but I don't see that being any easier than riveting the rings.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 16:53:13 GMT
I must have thought that butted was riveted, because the butted kind is what I was going to make. Except that instead of using washers I was going to use steel fencing wire. Now that I think about it, the washers do sound like a good idea.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2009 17:11:55 GMT
Get good washers. The weaker they are, the more likelier they are to just fall apart due to the weight. Remember, this is going to weigh a good bit. I want to say 10 to 20 Lbs just for a shirt, but it's been a while since I put on any chainmail.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2009 0:43:31 GMT
10 through 20 pounds? I know a guy who made a shirt and coif and it weighed 40 pounds. I thought that when you said it was going to be "heavy" you meant like 50+ pounds. If it's only around 40 I can probably live with that. You have to remember that the weight will be spread out.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2009 1:19:38 GMT
Like I said, it's been awhile. I don't remember exactly. And it was Just a shirt. No sleeves, and it barely reached my waist. And I'm not a big guy. I didn't want to exaggerate the number of pounds. I just remember that it was Heavy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2009 23:25:07 GMT
What gauge is Stainless steel normally made for plate armour? I don't usually see a gauge listed on this type of armour. Is it generally weaker than cold rolled Steel?
Is the only advantage to Stainless that is doesn't rust and looks cool?
Im also curious how its made but that might be a long discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 1:52:12 GMT
All I know is that this guy made a shirt with long sleeves that went a few inches below his waist, and a hood/coif which weighed somewhere around 43 pounds, according to him. He used 16 guage steel too, I'm pretty sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2009 3:54:42 GMT
Yeah. that's pretty heavy. My entire kit -- helm, shield, sword, armour (legs, arms, body) -- is going to weigh about 50-60 Lbs when I'm done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 0:01:45 GMT
What kind of armor are you going to wear? Chainmail, leather?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 1:24:25 GMT
Scale. I'm making it out of leather because the metalworkers in this area are not up to the task of making my scales out of metal. It's a complex design. A Chinese armour called "Shan Wen Kia" or "Mountain Pattern Armour."
So I placed an order at my local saddle repair place for what amounts to a cow and a half and I await its arrival to begin construction. I hope it'll be here in time for me to complete this armour for Pennsic. In the meantime, I put together a very rudimentary plate and leather body piece. I'm putting pics up on Sunday.
Oh, and I miss-guessed the total weight. I'm looking at 80 pounds in toto. And that's with 15-20 pounds in my helm and another 10 in my shield.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 1:58:42 GMT
Wow, that must be a heavy-duty helm if it weighs that much. I am wondering if making plate armor from plastic would be a good idea. It shouldn't weigh that much, and if it is thick enough it should be pretty sturdy. It might make an interesting project for someone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 5:26:47 GMT
Barrel Plastic. And make sure you paint it ("because it's laminated") or cover it. Preferably cover it. Plastic looks really bad.
Yes, my helm is made from heavy duty steel. It's 12 Gg, but it's spun so only has the guesstimated strength of 16 Gg. Spun metal loses a Lot of strength. So I have all the weight of the heavier stuff and less than half the strength. But I got it cheap, and 16 Gg in a Mongolian style seems to be plenty. Anyway, if you want to se the finished piece, check out my thread: /index.cgi?board=armour&action=display&thread=10438
I'll be updating it after fighter practice on Sunday (practice is Sunday, updates will be after practice but not necessarily the same day) with images of me in my new temporary-temporary body armour. I'll use it till I can construct my permanent-temporary scale.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 16:54:39 GMT
Just some impressions I've gotten over time:
In regards to steel types: I believe stainless is stronger than cold rolled, which is in turn stronger than hot rolled. Stainless also work hardens faster. Tempered carbon steel trumps them all of course.
Also, when considering what gouge to use for plate armour, you can of course go with a thinner gauge if you use a stronger material. I've heard of people using 16 gauge helmets for SCA combat but only if they were made of tempered steel.
Tsafsa pretty much hit the nail on the head in regards to the thickness of historical plate armour. In general much thinner than what you see used now, mostly for the reasons he mentioned. If you want to see historical armour look at living history reenacters not sca.
I'm not as familiar with mail. Keep in mind though that all historical mail was rivited, At least western anyway. I believe there were some interesting variations in the east like the aforementioned twisting. The only cases I have ever come across where butted mail was used was for repairs, probably temporary. Butted mail is really not very functional at all. It could be , but to be so it would need to be prohibitively heavy. So if you don't want it to be functional at all than butted is fine but it may need frequent repairs if you wear it a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 17:26:34 GMT
If I used 14 guage butted, would I have to repair it often? By the way, I am not in the SCA. I don't fight or do reenactment. I just wanted to make some that I could wear around. I don't want to use aluminum though. 16 guage sounds like it would work alright for what I want, the only problem is that I don't have the tools to roll the wire. I can buy the 14 guage in pre-made rings, but it costs around $20 for I think 2100 rings. I would like to join the SCA, but I can't find any kingdoms that are close to where I live (Seminole County, Georgia). That, and I can't afford armor unless I use what I have saved for my real sword, which I am not going to do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 18:24:00 GMT
Have you tried searching via SCA.org? On the right side of that page is a link "Find your local group" That puts you into either Atlantia (where I started) or Meridies. From there, you follow the links for those kingdoms and see which one contains your county. Follow the links within that kingdom to find you local group. Follow the links within that group's website to find practice/meeting locations and times.
Oh, and the armour doesn't really cost THAT much if you make it yourself. Your helm should be your single biggest expense and you can find a generic one pretty easily for about $100. tsafa knows all sorts of places to get them.
For the expense and time of making your own chainmail, whether riveted, butted or twisted, you could make a really nice Wisby Coat of Plates or, well, hell, you could make a decent chain hauberk for just a couple hundred dollars (plus lots of time). The Wisby style doesn't require anywhere near so much time.
Including the cost of buying the tools to do the work and of building a workstation, my current armour cost about $200 to make and 3 days of work (most of that running around finding what I needed). Actual assembly and parts, $5 for rivets, $30 for leather, $30 for steel, and about 4 or 5 hours. For a first-timer making his First piece of armour.
And finally, almost all groups have at least Some loaner armour that you can wear for a few months of practice before they expect you to be in your own kit.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2009 19:16:20 GMT
Just some impressions I've gotten over time: In regards to steel types: I believe stainless is stronger than cold rolled, which is in turn stronger than hot rolled. Stainless also work hardens faster. Tempered carbon steel trumps them all of course. Also, when considering what gouge to use for plate armour, you can of course go with a thinner gauge if you use a stronger material. I've heard of people using 16 gauge helmets for SCA combat but only if they were made of tempered steel. Tsafsa pretty much hit the nail on the head in regards to the thickness of historical plate armour. In general much thinner than what you see used now, mostly for the reasons he mentioned. If you want to see historical armour look at living history reenacters not sca. I'm not as familiar with mail. Keep in mind though that all historical mail was rivited, At least western anyway. I believe there were some interesting variations in the east like the aforementioned twisting. The only cases I have ever come across where butted mail was used was for repairs, probably temporary. Butted mail is really not very functional at all. It could be , but to be so it would need to be prohibitively heavy. So if you don't want it to be functional at all than butted is fine but it may need frequent repairs if you wear it a lot. Actually, hot rolled will be stronger than cold rolled; and hammered rather than spun if you want strength, otherwise you'll have to go heavier for the same amount of protection. As you said tho, butted mail is not functional, it is costume. I have a riveted hauberk I bought, roughly 30,000 rings, it weighs 31 lbs. That's heavy in my book. Mine's full sleeved, comes down to the knees I believe. Jonathan, do you have horses? I asked because you mentioned splits for horseback riding. I would LOVE to be able to do that, myself. I guess the question is, what do you want to do with this armor, will you be fighting or just looking good? Don't get me wrong, just looking good is perfectly fine, but you needn't go all out on chain if that's going to be your only use for it, unless you have spare money to burn. Making it yourself will probably give you an intense feeling of satisfaction, and doing butted isn't hard, just time consuming and you may end up with all sorts of little cuts and bangs on your hands and fingers but hey, that's part of the trade. Butted mail's so cheap these days it almost doesn't make sense to take the time to make it, but to each their own.
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