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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 31, 2023 22:53:43 GMT
Peace guys! Is my idea of not lethal ammo (rubber, pepper spray, gas, torch) really so unthinkable for you? You still have a visible pistol that makes bangbang to shock the attacker and this ammo is a weapon on knife distance too. And you don't shoot your family and neighbors.
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Post by carbon on Dec 31, 2023 22:55:59 GMT
Agreed, and Happy New year!
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 31, 2023 22:56:01 GMT
Tiers 1, you may be able to further mitigate over penetration fears by choosing a 9mm round that fragments more so on impact. Remember, however, that you will never fully remove the danger of kinetic ballistic material unless you don't pull the trigger altogether, just the nature of the beast. But you do have, like you pointed out, options in firearms & the rounds they fire to penetrate less, so I'd pick what ya feel most comfy with. I'm a big hollow point guy so that really helps regarding over penetration. Hollow points are optimally designed to open up when passing thru the fluid and soft tissue of the human (or animal) body. There are many documented cases where a hollow point in missed shot passing thru drywall "fills up with the drywall material" and essentially becomes ballistically defacto FMJ ammo. This phenomenon has also been documented in OIS's in winter environments when the perps are wearing layer's of thick warm clothing / leather. It's best to just not miss. If a modern high quality HP passes thru its intended target and properly mushrooms, its ability to keep over penetrating barriers is significantly diminished with the reduction of kinetic energy dumped into the target when the bullet rapidly decelerated in the mushrooming process into a significantly wider cross section projectile.
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Post by howler on Dec 31, 2023 23:10:21 GMT
Tiers 1, you may be able to further mitigate over penetration fears by choosing a 9mm round that fragments more so on impact. Remember, however, that you will never fully remove the danger of kinetic ballistic material unless you don't pull the trigger altogether, just the nature of the beast. But you do have, like you pointed out, options in firearms & the rounds they fire to penetrate less, so I'd pick what ya feel most comfy with. I'm a big hollow point guy so that really helps regarding over penetration. Hollow points are optimally designed to open up when passing thru the fluid and soft tissue of the human (or animal) body. There are many documented cases where a hollow point in missed shot passing thru drywall "fills up with the drywall material" and essentially becomes ballistically all in to FMJ ammo. This phenomenon has also been documented in OIS's in winter environments when the perps are wearing layer's of thick warm clothing / leather. It's best to just not miss. If a modern high quality HP passes thru its intended target and properly mushrooms, its ability to keep over penetrating barriers is significantly diminished with the reduction of kinetic energy dumped into the target when the bullet rapidly decelerated in the mushrooming process to a significantly wider cross section projectile. I'm with you on the "don't miss/shoot what you're aiming at while respecting what's behind the target". Yup, hollow points often fail when many variables are added. Can't wait for the day everyone can be a Capt. Kirk, setting phasers on stun. At that point all you need are hot green women and Romulan Ale.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 31, 2023 23:13:58 GMT
Hollow points are optimally designed to open up when passing thru the fluid and soft tissue of the human (or animal) body. There are many documented cases where a hollow point in missed shot passing thru drywall "fills up with the drywall material" and essentially becomes ballistically all in to FMJ ammo. This phenomenon has also been documented in OIS's in winter environments when the perps are wearing layer's of thick warm clothing / leather. It's best to just not miss. If a modern high quality HP passes thru its intended target and properly mushrooms, its ability to keep over penetrating barriers is significantly diminished with the reduction of kinetic energy dumped into the target when the bullet rapidly decelerated in the mushrooming process to a significantly wider cross section projectile. I'm with you on the "don't miss/shoot what you're aiming at while respecting what's behind the target". Yup, hollow points often fail when many variables are added. Can't wait for the day everyone can be a Capt. Kirk, setting phasers on stun. At that point all you need are hot green women and Romulan Ale.I would prefer a Romulan disruptor rifle but yes please for hot green woman and Romulan Ale. Just please God no klingon food.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 31, 2023 23:18:49 GMT
Early bird gets the gagh! Happy new Year! (00:15 here)
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Post by carbon on Dec 31, 2023 23:24:43 GMT
Romulin disruptor or phaser, I wouldn't be that picky. Add a photon torpedo launcher on the back of my truck and I'd be good to go.
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Post by pellius on Dec 31, 2023 23:51:43 GMT
About 5 hours till new year here. So happy happy, guys!
(Remainder of post was related to topic, but prolly not worth it, and deleted)
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seth
Member
Just Peachy
Posts: 983
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Post by seth on Jan 1, 2024 0:16:42 GMT
Regarding the need for a free hand, put a sling on all your long guns, thus giving the ability to open doors, grab things, etc... [/quote] It sounds like you have settled on using a shotgun which is a perfectly fine choice. I recommend a stock versus a pistol or bird's head grip. It will increase your efficacy 100 fold. Then train in using it and maneuvering in tight spaces. +1 to howler's sling suggestion. The other critical thing about a sling is that it will help prevent the weapon being wrestled away from you. If someone were to grab your shotgun, having a secondary weapon like a knife is a good idea. You can keep one hand on the firearm and rely on the sling to prevent losing it. Use the free hand to pull the knife and get control of the firearm back. I like small fixed blades. There are some especially designed for it like Kabar TDI or cold steel push daggers. More expensive ones are shivworks knives. If you are open to having more than one firearm, having a pistol like a DA action revolver as your secondary is good too. In the event of a struggle for the shotgun, you can keep your offhand on the slung weapon and draw and fire the revolver as close range. For that, something like a S&W 442 or Ruger LCR is a good choice. You can then have a blade as a tertiary.
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mrstabby
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Posts: 1,263
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 1, 2024 8:07:08 GMT
You could go with wax slugs on the shotgun. Pretty much homemade frangible slugs. They hit hard but break up and probably won't have much energy after passing through the first wall.
As stated before, drywall makes HP bullets behave like FMJ, but there are frangible 9mm. You need to be aware they can be less desirable because they don't penetrate far though. Worst case if the intruder has a vest, the 9mm won't do much anyways.
Just saying this to cover every base, there are repeating crossbows now. Arrows don't penetrate walls as well as bullets. They also can defeat some low level bulletprroof vests that can stop pistol rounds when they aren't stabproof as well. Although not as instantly incapacitating or frightening as a gushot, they are still quite deadly.
About less lethal options: Many times seeing a gun and hearing shots will make robbers run, but if they don't you are screwed. Also there is unfortunately a big difference between some countries. The likelyhood of a robber having a real firearm is really high in the US compared to central europe. Less lethal is just an option when nobody has a real firearm.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 1, 2024 18:01:06 GMT
You could go with wax slugs on the shotgun. Pretty much homemade frangible slugs. They hit hard but break up and probably won't have much energy after passing through the first wall. As stated before, drywall makes HP bullets behave like FMJ, but there are frangible 9mm. You need to be aware they can be less desirable because they don't penetrate far though. Worst case if the intruder has a vest, the 9mm won't do much anyways. Just saying this to cover every base, there are repeating crossbows now. Arrows don't penetrate walls as well as bullets. They also can defeat some low level bulletprroof vests that can stop pistol rounds when they aren't stabproof as well. Although not as instantly incapacitating or frightening as a gushot, they are still quite deadly. About less lethal options: Many times seeing a gun and hearing shots will make robbers run, but if they don't you are screwed. Also there is unfortunately a big difference between some countries. The likelyhood of a robber having a real firearm is really high in the US compared to central europe. Less lethal is just an option when nobody has a real firearm. If someone wanted to use frangible I'd suggest they stagger the magazine so that if the first 2-3 shots of frangible failed to have the desired effect you are then throwing quality defensive hollow points down range when you really need to
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 2, 2024 9:01:32 GMT
That would be a solution for all of you owning only one pistol...
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Post by pellius on Jan 2, 2024 17:41:46 GMT
Only…one? lol
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Post by Arlequin on Jan 2, 2024 18:50:31 GMT
Peace guys! Is my idea of not lethal ammo (rubber, pepper spray, gas, torch) really so unthinkable for you? You still have a visible pistol that makes bangbang to shock the attacker and this ammo is a weapon on knife distance too. And you don't shoot your family and neighbors. Depending on local laws, any of those options could get you in more trouble than simply putting lead in their cranium, ditto if the guy is packing real bullets.
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Post by izzy on Jan 3, 2024 14:32:36 GMT
A little late to this thread ( maybe for the best), but even #4 will through about 3 sheet rock walls, minus the studs:
However it wont have much energy after that, I also kept #4 handy when I lived in a condo in FL. Large Birdshot at very close distances is OK, but after a few yards you will have lots of little pellets that might not penetrate vital organs, so again I would prefer #4 buckshot in a house that has sheet rock. 12" to 14" of penetration in ballistic gelatin is what the FBI deems to be the minimum for Lethal force.
I have to agree with almost EVERYTHING Mr. Stabby has written here ( except wax slugs), Shooting for the Hip is an old trick, but a good one, another target besides the Head, and heart, is the Femur bones, but the hip is a large target and the best one IMHO. I have to constantly mentally prepare myself for that, as I want to instinctively aim for "center mass", not that that's a bad thing per say.
Secondly, if you shoot angled more downwards to the hip, the round will likely hit the floorboards in most American "Stick homes"...THUS reducing the risk of hitting loved ones, innocents, etc.. Now, If one has a hose w/ a slab of concrete as the floor, or concrete walls, or one is on the street, one must worry about a ricochet if you miss, or the bullet passes through the Attacker, then there is serious concern....but the primary concern is to "neutralize" the attacker, above all else.
Now we also know "fight or flight: hormones are from the bones, and the hip is a big supporting Bone :
One should also consider that many people are attacked just outside the home, as they enter, as well as in parking lots of all kinds. I had my CCW since I was 21 in VA, later in MN, and finally in FL. I appreciate most people want to protect the home, and legally that is the best place to defend oneself, but it's imperative to consider that one may be attacked outside the home, or just as one enters. ( making it easy for the criminal to get inside).
One thing I disagree with Lord Newport on is selling you spare guns. While I am surprised you went with 10mm as your (first?) primary HG, if you shoot it well, you should keep it, same with the 9mm carbine. Different situations call for different weapons, having different calibers helps with Ammo availability...if one Caliber is not in stock, maybe the other flavor is.
I DO however agree with Lord Newport on training. It costs time and money to do, but it's money well spent if you have the ability and desire. If you can't, or just don't want to spend the money (don't see the value), you can train yourself reasonably well, it's not rocket science.
To be honest other than CCW training, some private security training w/ a sub-machine gun, and some very basic Army training in a low level unit made of rejects ....I don't consider myself very well trained in terms of shooting. In fact, I just went to the range and shot a lot back when Ammo was cheaper, that made me look good when I did any of the above mentioned "training" ( basic skills mostly).
Then there is the fact that some people are "naturals", and only need familiarity with the weapon to make good shots consistently. I am not a "natural" but with time and practice surpassed at least one "natural" shooter I knew in ability.
Plenty of free resources to help on the net, here is just a few of them:
(pg 84 and up for shooting, but it's all good)
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Post by paulmuaddib on Jan 3, 2024 19:39:55 GMT
Oh wow, those old paladin press books. Unlocked some late 70s early 80s memories there.
Also to add that I’ve enjoyed this thread and learned about hollow points and drywall. I’d never seen that info before. Thanks
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,669
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Post by tera on Jan 4, 2024 0:33:13 GMT
Another caveat with hollow points (or any projectile, really) is Velocity vs. Mass.
Some "personal defense" loads, particularly by Hornady and sometimes branded with pink on the box (because sexism) are lighter grain hollow point, but high speed. So, they "should" still generate enough energy to cycle "most" semi-auto platforms, but still have lighter felt recoil and will dissipate energy faster in any given material due to their lighter weight. Thus, a load less likely to over penetrate when compared to standard loads.
Again, I always recommend at least 2 boxes (more if you can afford it) of any ammo through your firearm of choice before you trust your life to it.
Tangentially, light but fast is how .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO were planned to function. So, in that sense, their exterior and terminal ballistics are suitable as long as you don't go too short on the barrel (below about 10.5 Pistol/SBR) rendering it a very loud, very fireball-y .22lr. On the other end is .45ACP. Literally subsonic in it's natural state, but heavy so it still hits hard and retains momentum.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 4, 2024 0:37:50 GMT
Another caveat with hollow points (or any projectile, really) is Velocity vs. Mass. Some "personal defense" loads, particularly by Hornady and sometimes branded with pink on the box (because sexism) are lighter grain hollow point, but high speed. So, they "should" still generate enough energy to cycle "most" semi-auto platforms, but still have lighter felt recoil and will dissipate energy faster in any given material due to their lighter weight. Thus, a load less likely to over penetrate when compared to standard loads. Again, I always recommend at least 2 boxes (more if you can afford it) of any ammo through your firearm of choice before you trust your life to it. Tangentially, light but fast is how .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO were planned to function. So, in that sense, their exterior and terminal ballistics are suitable as long as you don't go too short on the barrel (below about 10.5 Pistol/SBR) rendering it a very loud, very fireball-y .22lr. On the other end is .45ACP. Literally subsonic in it's natural state, but heavy so it still hits hard and retains momentum. Noooooooo...lol Let's not re-hash the 9mm/.45acp debate here...
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,669
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Post by tera on Jan 4, 2024 0:42:02 GMT
Lol, don't worry. Caliber choice should be just as personal as platform, and I don't advocate there being only one "correct" caliber of choice.
I was just comparing two well known calibers (5.56 NATO and .45 ACP) on opposite ends of the velocity vs. mass equation. Both are well suited to different things.
So yes, either 9mm or .45 (or .40, or 10mm, or whatever) are just fine if the circumstances warrant them. The problem defines the tool, not the other way around. 👍
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Post by howler on Jan 4, 2024 1:21:52 GMT
Another caveat with hollow points (or any projectile, really) is Velocity vs. Mass. Some "personal defense" loads, particularly by Hornady and sometimes branded with pink on the box (because sexism) are lighter grain hollow point, but high speed. So, they "should" still generate enough energy to cycle "most" semi-auto platforms, but still have lighter felt recoil and will dissipate energy faster in any given material due to their lighter weight. Thus, a load less likely to over penetrate when compared to standard loads. Again, I always recommend at least 2 boxes (more if you can afford it) of any ammo through your firearm of choice before you trust your life to it. Tangentially, light but fast is how .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO were planned to function. So, in that sense, their exterior and terminal ballistics are suitable as long as you don't go too short on the barrel (below about 10.5 Pistol/SBR) rendering it a very loud, very fireball-y .22lr. On the other end is .45ACP. Literally subsonic in it's natural state, but heavy so it still hits hard and retains momentum. Noooooooo...lol Let's not re-hash the 9mm/.45acp rebate here... Good, cuz I was just about to point out why .40 S&W is the clear answer. Answer, all of the above, due to ammo availability issues. Besides, different bullet weight and powder ranges (low velocity .40 or high velocity 9mm, for instance) can make all three shoot very much like each other.
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