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Post by paulmuaddib on Dec 29, 2023 21:59:37 GMT
You’re right again. Pelvis shots can do so much damage and disabling. I figure I’ll start low with the first shot, around the belly and let recoil do the rest for follow ups. But again, all plans blah blah. Iirc you live in Europe , specifically England but I could be misremembering. If so , yeah you don’t have the same situation as us yanks but it’s good to think about these things so you’re mentally prepared just in case. Austria. I would not have the problem of friendly fire through walls either. The inside walls being 20cm/8" concrete could probably stop most common rifle bullets. To the outsode its more like 50cm/16", old house, built like a bunker. I don't have a guard dog, but a cat in the dark going in between your legs while you walk can also be dangerous. An Austria, again sorry. House sounds great. Now just train your cat to attack the intruder and you don’t even need a gun. 😏 And if I ever win the lottery your beautiful country is very high on my list to visit.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 29, 2023 22:00:47 GMT
Just my two cents. Being comfortable with the gun is the most important thing. Find a gun you like, then go the range and put a few hundred rounds through it till it feels like an extention of you. As far choices,as i assume you realized a simple 12 Guage shotgun with buckshot is the most optimal choice, my personal choice for a side arm is a 7 shot revolver in .357, very reliable round that is also compatible with some rifles. No one is John Wick, and these altercations end very fast and is basically decided by who has the best nerve in the moment so there's not much point buying these large mag guns unless you genuinely like them and are willing to train to use them efficiently. Reducing recoil for the 12gauge you could also use mini shells, not as destructive (less chance of overpenetration as well) as full or magnum shells but still equal to a fe shots from a pistol. Only problem is not every gun copes well with those.
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 29, 2023 22:38:53 GMT
I have seen a rifle with 5.56 mentioned many a time and while the round does tend to tumble and sometimes not penetrate too much, it seems that there is a good amount of variability and sometimes it indeed still goes through everything it hits. Alot of good thoughts but for me one of the main things I am ruminating on is that I spent thousands of dollars that I didn't need to because a shotgun with the right shells is, I am fairly certain, the best choice for home defense when other homes with standard drywall and vinyl exteriors are nearby. IMHO There are just so many people in the gun hobby who recommend what they like without really digging into context and that caused me to waste a whole bunch of dollars.
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Post by howler on Dec 29, 2023 22:41:23 GMT
Just my two cents. Being comfortable with the gun is the most important thing. Find a gun you like, then go the range and put a few hundred rounds through it till it feels like an extention of you. As far choices,as i assume you realized a simple 12 Guage shotgun with buckshot is the most optimal choice, my personal choice for a side arm is a 7 shot revolver in .357, very reliable round that is also compatible with some rifles. No one is John Wick, and these altercations end very fast and is basically decided by who has the best nerve in the moment so there's not much point buying these large mag guns unless you genuinely like them and are willing to train to use them efficiently. Excellent choice of handgun is a revolver. If you pull the trigger and the gun don't go bang...pull the trigger again. I have a few 8 shot .357s backing that belief up.
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 29, 2023 23:09:58 GMT
I am assuming though you don't have nothing but drywall, vinyl, and 20 feet separating your house wall from your neighbors...nearly every handgun caliber is off the table for me.
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tera
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Post by tera on Dec 29, 2023 23:45:19 GMT
I have seen a rifle with 5.56 mentioned many a time and while the round does tend to tumble and sometimes not penetrate too much, it seems that there is a good amount of variability and sometimes it indeed still goes through everything it hits. Alot of good thoughts but for me one of the main things I am ruminating on is that I spent thousands of dollars that I didn't need to because a shotgun with the right shells is, I am fairly certain, the best choice for home defense when other homes with standard drywall and vinyl exteriors are nearby. IMHO There are just so many people in the gun hobby who recommend what they like without really digging into context and that caused me to waste a whole bunch of dollars. I'd say you spend thousands of dollars you didn't need to because you were poorly served by the people selling the firearms. I have an entire process for helping people determine the appropriate firearm for their anatomy, situation, and lifestyle. I had many loyal and repeat customers because of my attention to detail in that regard. Sadly, not all gun shops either know how to do this or care. There's way more to unpack here than would fit without becoming a ramble, but I see good and not-so-good advice mentioned here. For example, know your applicable laws. In my country and State, we have law of castle. No duty to retreat from your own home. However, you shoot to stop a threat. If the intruder ceases to be a threat and you keep shooting, that becomes murder. Also, there is no legal distinction between shooting "near" someone and shooting with intent to hit them, so there are no such things as "warning shots" legally. And practically, I discourage hip fire unless you are highly trained (and documented as such) with that kind of point shooting. You are responsible for every round fired, so I advise using a sighting system to aim.
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Post by carbon on Dec 30, 2023 0:42:29 GMT
Which weapon is best for personal defense has been debated for decades and will continue to be long after most of us are gone. It all boils down to what works best for you and your situation. Whatever you decide on I suggest, especially since you are new to firearms, that you take a training class on the weapon of your choice. Most gun shops can point you in that direction, and they are not terribly expensive. Then, as mentioned, practice as often as you can.
As Pellius noted, an alarm system, preferably one with monitoring, wold be a wise investment. Often times an alarm going off will cause the intruder to make a quick withdrawal before any action on your part needs to be taken.
One more thing. A word of caution to all here, be careful what you post online. Should, God forbid, you ever have to use deadly force to protect your home or loved ones rest assured that your web presence will be gone over thoroughly by the local authorities and could well be used against you in either a criminal or civil case.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 31, 2023 17:46:34 GMT
Quick cliff notes response;
- Sell all the guns you don't need and get some professional training!!!!! Cant emphasize this enough! - #4 heavy bird shot is a much better shotgun defense option inside the home. - A shotgun or any long gun is a liability in the close quarters of a hallway or rooms when used by the untrained. It can be difficult to maneuver with and it is easily swatted away/deflected and pinned or taken away from an untrained user. Weapons retention is a thing! - A 9mm pistol with a quality weapons mounted light (keeps one hand free) is probably the best CQB weapon for the average untrained homeowner. - Use the same ammo your local PD/sheriff's' department uses, THe LA Sheriff's Department, which sees many more shootings than most, uses 147gr. Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T's. - THINK about the different scenarios you may run into and have a plan for each: - Burglary at night with you/family in the house (Do you have children/wife to protect?) - Coming home to a burglary in process - Being attacked outside the house as you leave or arrive by those wanting access to the house.
For people seeking basic home protection weapons I recommend a GLock 19 and if a shotgun is desired, a quality pump shotgun (Remington 870/mossberg 500)loaded with #4 heavy birdshot.
What I recommend most is professional weapons / tactical training. Being able to shoot a gun is a different physical and mental process than being able to fight with a gun.
Gunfighting rules: - It isn't the first shot that wins, it's the first hit..."speed is fine but accuracy is FINAL!" - Stopping power: shot placement and penetration. You need to be able to control your weapon under stress and get the desired hit and it must be with a caliber big enough to penetrate deeply into the body at that point of impact.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 31, 2023 17:59:29 GMT
I am assuming though you don't have nothing but drywall, vinyl, and 20 feet separating your house wall from your neighbors...nearly every handgun caliber is off the table for me. Just saw this and I totally disagree with this...but if this is how you feel then a firearm is probably not your best option or you could consider a 357/38 special revolver with snake shot in it. I would avoid the semi auto snake shot and stick with the uber reliable revolver variety. It's NOT great and NOT designed to be used to stop human threats but better than nothing I suppose. www.cci-ammunition.com/handgun/cci/
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 31, 2023 18:00:48 GMT
Austria. I would not have the problem of friendly fire through walls either. The inside walls being 20cm/8" concrete could probably stop most common rifle bullets. To the outsode its more like 50cm/16", old house, built like a bunker. I don't have a guard dog, but a cat in the dark going in between your legs while you walk can also be dangerous. An Austria, again sorry. House sounds great. Now just train your cat to attack the intruder and you don’t even need a gun. 😏 And if I ever win the lottery your beautiful country is very high on my list to visit.
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 31, 2023 18:45:40 GMT
I have seen several reasonably constructed evaluations result in even 9mm going through enough cladding and siding materials to pose a serious risk to a neighbor on a missed shot. Fair enough if you don't agree but tell me a bit about why? The test had actual house walls (or close enough) set up for the purpose and the bullets absolutely would have gone into a neighbor's house.
I recognize there are things like wall studs and furniture, and the whole point is not to miss, but I want to minimize risk of harming an innocent person or pet.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 31, 2023 18:53:51 GMT
I have seen several reasonably constructed evaluations result in even 9mm going through enough cladding and siding materials to pose a serious risk to a neighbor on a missed shot. Fair enough if you don't agree but tell me a bit about why? The test had actual house walls (or close enough) set up for the purpose and the bullets absolutely would have gone into a neighbor's house. I recognize there are things like wall studs and furniture, and the whole point is not to miss, but I want to minimize risk of harming an innocent person or pet. Get training and don't miss...it's not like shots in a typical home are more than 20 feet
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 31, 2023 19:24:03 GMT
Alright so your reasoning is do what one can to help ensure one does not miss. I tend to think that even with training, in a situation like this, one might miss. I do agree that with training at 20 feet or less a miss is far less likely, but I can't shake the thought that if a miss does happen, even with a 9mm...
that is why I think I'll stick to #4 with a short shotgun.
And I agree totally that weapons retention is a thing. Beyond wall penetration, that is another topic that seems to rarely get discussed. It would seem that pump shotguns are a bit of a liability there as beyond wrestling it away someone also has the option of interfering with the pump action.
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Post by carbon on Dec 31, 2023 19:38:41 GMT
Quick cliff notes response; - Sell all the guns you don't need and get some professional training!!!!! Cant emphasize this enough!- #4 heavy bird shot is a much better shotgun defense option inside the home. - A shotgun or any long gun is a liability in the close quarters of a hallway or rooms when used by the untrained. It can be difficult to maneuver with and it is easily swatted away/deflected and pinned or taken away from an untrained user. Weapons retention is a thing! - A 9mm pistol with a quality weapons mounted light (keeps one hand free) is probably the best CQB weapon for the average untrained homeowner. - Use the same ammo your local PD/sheriff's' department uses, THe LA Sheriff's Department, which sees many more shootings than most, uses 147gr. Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T's. - THINK about the different scenarios you may run into and have a plan for each: - Burglary at night with you/family in the house (Do you have children/wife to protect?) - Coming home to a burglary in process - Being attacked outside the house as you leave or arrive by those wanting access to the house. For people seeking basic home protection weapons I recommend a GLock 19 and if a shotgun is desired, a quality pump shotgun (Remington 870/mossberg 500)loaded with #4 heavy birdshot. What I recommend most is professional weapons / tactical training. Being able to shoot a gun is a different physical and mental process than being able to fight with a gun.
Gunfighting rules: - It isn't the first shot that wins, it's the first hit..."speed is fine but accuracy is FINAL!" - Stopping power: shot placement and penetration. You need to be able to control your weapon under stress and get the desired hit and it must be with a caliber big enough to penetrate deeply into the body at that point of impact. I couldn't agree with you more on the training. Then practice, practice as much as time and money allow.
Edited: too much info that doesn't apply to the OP's original post.
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Post by carbon on Dec 31, 2023 20:26:33 GMT
Alright so your reasoning is do what one can to help ensure one does not miss. I tend to think that even with training, in a situation like this, one might miss. I do agree that with training at 20 feet or less a miss is far less likely, but I can't shake the thought that if a miss does happen, even with a 9mm... that is why I think I'll stick to #4 with a short shotgun. And I agree totally that weapons retention is a thing. Beyond wall penetration, that is another topic that seems to rarely get discussed. It would seem that pump shotguns are a bit of a liability there as beyond wrestling it away someone also has the option of interfering with the pump action. Your concern for the risk to others is indeed admirable. Have you ever considered that a well trained guard dog might be an option for you? Not trying to be sarcastic, just offering something else to consider.
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 31, 2023 22:08:03 GMT
Are you really so sure what I do and I don't know Lord Newport?
Could you articulate for me, clearly, why your rude and pretentious comment is necessary here? Seriously, tell me why. Tell me the logic.
I am so, so tired of this crap. This crap is why barely anyone participates.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 31, 2023 22:10:29 GMT
Are you really so sure what I do and I don't know Lord Newport? Could you articulate for me, clearly, why your rude and pretentious comment is necessary here? Seriously, tell me why. Tell me the logic. I am so, so tired of this crap. This crap is why barely anyone participates. Never mind...have a happy and safe New Year.
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 31, 2023 22:16:49 GMT
I recognize that you might believe that I took it the wrong way. I also recognize that you in all likelihood recognize there may have been a better way to put it but you didn't bother. Even if you think it is a small thing, I assure you, this spectrum of behavior is why 23 people worldwide participate in this forum and why SFI and countless other forums are dead. I also noticed you changed your response post from 'never mind' to 'never mind and have a happy and safe new year'. Thank you. If you are a nice guy, just be a nice guy, even when you are anonymous. A nice and safe new year to you, too.
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Post by carbon on Dec 31, 2023 22:36:40 GMT
I read Lord Newport's original post that you mentioned. It should be obvious to anyone who's been in this game a while that he is a professional, or at least highly experienced, and knows what he's talking about. Such people tend to have little patience toward those who won't listen. I tend to agree with you that some here can be quite rude at times but also many people tend to be overly sensitive and with the 'net being what it is can be easily offended. I find some posts offensive at times but I get over it.
FWIW, I tend to agree with Lord Newport. If that is offensive to you, well, my apologies and Happy New year.
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Post by howler on Dec 31, 2023 22:45:42 GMT
Tiers 1, you may be able to further mitigate over penetration fears by choosing a 9mm round that fragments more so on impact. Remember, however, that you will never fully remove the danger of kinetic ballistic material unless you don't pull the trigger altogether, just the nature of the beast. But you do have, like you pointed out, options in firearms & the rounds they fire to penetrate less, so I'd pick what ya feel most comfy with. I'm a big hollow point guy so that really helps regarding over penetration.
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