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Post by MichaelRS on Aug 16, 2021 4:20:12 GMT
Other than swords being made by the traditional Japanese method, it seems other folded steel, particularly on production blades, is not necessarily desirable.
What do you guys think of what this young man has to say?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 16, 2021 6:11:11 GMT
Modern made rolled cast steel doesn't need to be folded.
If someone does it's s just for a better looking blade with a minimal cost of toughness.
Traditionally made bloomery steel like tamahagane needs to be folded.
I like both.
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 16, 2021 6:39:58 GMT
What he says about differences in hada between (most, not all) nihonto and Chinese folded steel is true enough, but I've seen no problems with any of my Chinese folded swords. The rest of it is an argument I've heard before, disagreed with, and have replied to on this forum elsewhere.
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Post by novak77 on Aug 16, 2021 13:01:37 GMT
I own several modern Nihonto (1900-2021), and I just recently ordered a Motohara for tameshigiri. I see about zero point in me using a traditionally forged Nihonto for cutting.
Just my unsolicited two cents.
Cheers
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Post by JH Lee on Aug 16, 2021 14:15:55 GMT
Personally, I don't "need" my blades to be folded. Two out of three of my main cutters are unfolded monosteel. But my favorite go-to cutter is still my customized Bugei Dragonfly, which is "unnecessarily" folded... but has held up admirably despite my many mistakes over the years. And the hada, however untraditional, is just pretty to look at.
Like with anything else, the overall quality of make, fit, and finish matter more than just folded vs. unfolded.
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Andy54Hawken
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Post by Andy54Hawken on Aug 16, 2021 14:39:56 GMT
New here...so take the following with a grain or two of salt.
It would seem to me that the quality of the materials used and the quality of the build would be of importance.
A folded steel sword made with poor workmanship...is just that...a sword made with poor workmanship.
The same for a sword made from non- folded steel.
Also something to consider here may be the type of sword....
Some swords were historically made with folded steel...as well as being made in a very specific way.
Other swords were not made with folded steel.
So if one wants a historic accurate copy of a sword...folded steel may or may not be a correct option.
Wants or needs...are very personal.
What to want to do with your sword...does the sword need to be as historically accurate as possible..?
How about your budget...that may also play a role for wants and needs.
Andy
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 16, 2021 16:54:39 GMT
New here...so take the following with a grain or two of salt. It would seem to me that the quality of the materials used and the quality of the build would be of importance. A folded steel sword made with poor workmanship...is just that...a sword made with poor workmanship. The same for a sword made from non- folded steel. I agree completely. I've seen poorly made folded steel blades and well made folded blades and the difference isn't always just in the aesthetics. if you're looking for the overall best performing blades and with all things considered equal as far as competence and skill of the smith and quality of the materials used, the non folded blade may have a small advantage over the folded but I'm sure it's negligible. If I trust the work of the smith and I feel like having a little extra visual interest, I wouldn't say no to a folded blade, some of them are very pretty. I would avoid most folded blades by manufacturers that don't have the best rep since there are many ways folding steel can go wrong and a lot of otherwise obvious flaws can be hidden from those that don't look as closely or know what to look for. I've seen too many cases of sellers counting on this, especially when the blade is also supposed to be laminated. are folded steel blades still desired? absolutely. if we all had a nickel for every time someone comes to a sword forum asking for a "traditionally made" Japanese katana with steel that's been folded, creating thousands of layers, just like the ancient smiths made them, because they can cut tanks in half without taking damage... we'd all be rich enough to afford a real tank cutting katana  |
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Andy54Hawken
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Post by Andy54Hawken on Aug 16, 2021 17:57:13 GMT
New here...so take the following with a grain or two of salt. It would seem to me that the quality of the materials used and the quality of the build would be of importance. A folded steel sword made with poor workmanship...is just that...a sword made with poor workmanship. The same for a sword made from non- folded steel. I agree completely. I've seen poorly made folded steel blades and well made folded blades and the difference isn't always just in the aesthetics. if you're looking for the overall best performing blades and with all things considered equal as far as competence and skill of the smith and quality of the materials used, the non folded blade may have a small advantage over the folded but I'm sure it's negligible. If I trust the work of the smith and I feel like having a little extra visual interest, I wouldn't say no to a folded blade, some of them are very pretty. I would avoid most folded blades by manufacturers that don't have the best rep since there are many ways folding steel can go wrong and a lot of otherwise obvious flaws can be hidden from those that don't look as closely or know what to look for. I've seen too many cases of sellers counting on this, especially when the blade is also supposed to be laminated. are folded steel blades still desired? absolutely. if we all had a nickel for every time someone comes to a sword forum asking for a "traditionally made" Japanese katana with steel that's been folded, creating thousands of layers, just like the ancient smiths made them, because they can cut tanks in half without taking damage... we'd all be rich enough to afford a real tank cutting katana Whew..! Took some thought on that post of mine...new guy and all tossing out his thoughts on steel and such... Glad it made sense.
A tank cutting kantana ...Himmm...in the army we called those Apache Gunships...or the A-10 Warthog...LOL Andy
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 16, 2021 22:43:56 GMT
We could be talking about French tanks only (definitely intended as a light-hearted joke).
I think unless I was having either an art sword made or having one made by a VERY well reputed smith using tamahagane, I wouldn't do folded. First, I don't own art pieces. I use my gear. Second, even if I could afford a Howard Clark, I'm the kind of guy who would feel bad spending that instead of paying down mortgage or, if super rich, not giving it to a worthwhile charity.
Unfolded modern steels, through-hardened or differentially hardened (depending on intended use) is good for my use-cases. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by JH Lee on Aug 16, 2021 23:40:44 GMT
Second, even if I could afford a Howard Clark, I'm the kind of guy who would feel bad spending that instead of paying down mortgage or, if super rich, not giving it to a worthwhile charity. You are a good man. |
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 16, 2021 23:47:50 GMT
Thank you, but I know I'm not, really. That's why if my family was in good shape and I had extra money, I'd be motivated to give it to actually good people so they can make a difference.
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Post by JH Lee on Aug 17, 2021 0:03:56 GMT
Thank you, but I know I'm not, really. Every decent human being I've ever met has said exactly this. Respect. 👍🏻 [The above is reinforced by your gracious and temperate reply to my outburst at you when we got our signals crossed over 2A] |
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Post by MichaelRS on Aug 17, 2021 2:27:30 GMT
Thanks to everybody responded thus far. I really appreciate your insights and opinions.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 17, 2021 18:50:09 GMT
Well, to oversimplify the discussion: folding the steel is a way to remove impurities and was done back in olden times as a matter of course. Modern steels are very pure from the foundries already and folding them will actually weaken the structure and introduce impurities. Folding modern steels doesn't impart any extra strength, it's mostly cosmetic.
As with everything, there are exceptions. But 95% of modern swords made from bar stock won't need to be folded for any reason. And as stated before, a crappy job by a crappy smith will make a crappy sword, no matter what material he (or she) started with.
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