howler
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Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 22:55:04 GMT
Jeez...another vote for small knife over short sword. Hahahaha I'm in an alternate reality and forced to choose a plastic spork. That is worth the purchase on novelty alone.
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howler
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Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 23:07:48 GMT
The French 1816 and US 1832 are meant for chopping wood, horse traces, etc. The World's wars were often won or lost from abundance or lack of fascine work. The US 1841 cutlass, similar to the French 1831 gladius/glaive is lighter and more fencible. The 1832 pictured weighs more than my ATrim Xiiia. Can I bring a spadroon to the dance? A true short sabre? Context is really everything. I still can't find the old Windlass fighting bowies. Scholagladiatoria would probably scoff, but beefy spadroons are fine by me. I think the post talked earlier about the fallacy of all bowies being equal, meaning people were lumping small clip points (and calling them bowies) with the larger, traditional fighters (those Windlass your pointing out) that were used mainly for utility in early/mid 19th century America, before Colt and friends "stabilized" the revolver/handgun. The simple CS Cutlass machete (I hate to admit, as I love the bowie) would be superior to any bowie, but now your getting into carry/conceal issues...where the bowie shines (if you have the resolve/legal ability to carry such a beast).
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 7, 2018 23:51:22 GMT
Come to think of it, I don't really have any bowies. Of course, if we really want to play with the line between "short sword" and "long knife," I field the following photo: I'd be most inclined to the one just right of the kukri if I needed to inflict damage on someone while avoiding being injured, myself, though my second choice would be fifth from the right. Granted, if I wanted to just scare someone off, it'd be the second from the left. (Directions are per thumbnail, fill image opens rotated clockwise so left = top, right = bottom)
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2018 1:17:36 GMT
I think the primary argument is that a large Bowie is not necessarily advantageous over a smaller knife, and trying to fine-tune the why's and why-nots.
I agree with the main thought, but I'd offer circumstances carry more influence than knife size.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 1:24:22 GMT
edelweiss, I been reading this exchange and Honestly it's a bit hard to follow. What exactly is your point against Howler? Every post is almost a word salad. Did you argue that a 7-8" dagger is superior to a 12" bowie? Can you be a little more clear? No I did not argue any object was better. I repeat that size is not everything and I feel I would do fine, even with a Ka-Bar spork. That should probably be enough of an explanation and enough bold talk from this one-eyed fat man. I m not trying to convince anyone, simply voicing an opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 1:26:23 GMT
That's the one!!!! What thread was it in?
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2018 1:59:16 GMT
Different cultures, at all times, had bigger and smaller blades for different applications fighting styles.
Some swords got very long in places with full plate armor, but stayed rather short in places without.
Daggers were sometimes very thin, triangular, or even cylindrical in cross-section at the same time in the same place because different people felt the design worked better.
Some blades are curved, some blades are straight, some blades curve the other way.
Depends who's using it and how they use it, to determine which is better, really.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 2:02:37 GMT
The French 1816 and US 1832 are meant for chopping wood, horse traces, etc. The World's wars were often won or lost from abundance or lack of fascine work. The US 1841 cutlass, similar to the French 1831 gladius/glaive is lighter and more fencible. The 1832 pictured weighs more than my ATrim Xiiia. Can I bring a spadroon to the dance? A true short sabre? Context is really everything. I still can't find the old Windlass fighting bowies. Scholagladiatoria would probably scoff, but beefy spadroons are fine by me. I think the post talked earlier about the fallacy of all bowies being equal, meaning people were lumping small clip points (and calling them bowies) with the larger, traditional fighters (those Windlass your pointing out) that were used mainly for utility in early/mid 19th century America, before Colt and friends "stabilized" the revolver/handgun. The simple CS Cutlass machete (I hate to admit, as I love the bowie) would be superior to any bowie, but now your getting into carry/conceal issues...where the bowie shines (if you have the resolve/legal ability to carry such a beast). I am still somewhat bemused with your understanding of history and utility. Going way back in the thread you bring up concealed wear "The simple CS Cutlass machete (I hate to admit, as I love the bowie) would be superior to any bowie, but now your getting into carry/conceal issues...where the bowie shines (if you have the resolve/legal ability to carry such a beast)." True I did mention size as a matter of comfortable carry/wear. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are jumping to the conclusion I meant for concealed wear. Concealed or not, a big lump on my hip, hanging in a baldric or shoulder, or small of the back, or boot; non of these would make me happy to wear. In a Wellington boot or the small of my back is where I used to wear a fixed blade for years in 1980s Boston/Cambridge, yes with a six inch blade But let's just get back to short swords and moderately sized knives. Then consider the word Bowie as ambiguous. Bowie was a family name It is a label that means different things to different people. Don't get hung up about the use of Bowie on shorter blades because those smaller knives were indeed regarded as bowies in the 19th century (and lawmakers today will still agree). I've mentioned in the past that yes indeed, the old SOG knives of the Vietnam war were short bowies, two versions. The WWII V42 dagger still in stock and sent to Cambodia during some jumps (must return upon mission completion, per the troop). I could rattle off half a dozen names of makers doing iron mistresses, Searles, chute knives, Loveless subhilt homage knives (aka the CS OSS) but it still becomes a matter of taste and personal subjective usefulness. I like stag and micarta, some despise both. What ever.........
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 2:10:43 GMT
Not true at all, as far as issued knives and most personal buys. Exceptions would be the big Western Co. bowie strapped to the B52s during Vietnam as a survival knife. Those aren't exactly that long either. The M9 bayonet/knife has a 7" blade. Check out some history and prove me wrong. www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/forum/8-edged-weapons/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 2:13:50 GMT
Ah, medieval and rennie stuff. It's a bit like mixing metaphors and next we'll be arguing rapier vs katana and pole arm vs dagger (the latter a classic).
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howler
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 2:21:22 GMT
Come to think of it, I don't really have any bowies. Of course, if we really want to play with the line between "short sword" and "long knife," I field the following photo: I'd be most inclined to the one just right of the kukri if I needed to inflict damage on someone while avoiding being injured, myself, though my second choice would be fifth from the right. Granted, if I wanted to just scare someone off, it'd be the second from the left. (Directions are per thumbnail, fill image opens rotated clockwise so left = top, right = bottom) There is a lot of potential pain infliction in that photo, particularly the larger stuff.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 2:28:51 GMT
I think the primary argument is that a large Bowie is not necessarily advantageous over a smaller knife, and trying to fine-tune the why's and why-nots. I agree with the main thought, but I'd offer circumstances carry more influence than knife size. The main thought is that generally, a larger blade (particularly one that can be wielded as a short sword) is advantageous, though there are always particulars (the phone booth mentioned earlier) and that variables (skill, similar light clothing, etc...) are equal (otherwise the thought experiment is clearly skewed). Generally, picking a knife instead of a short sword (with twice the weight and blade length) is illogical.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 2:36:45 GMT
As Keating himself will tell you, all the advantage and power can be dissolved. Twice the weight and blade length. Half as quick and twice the tip travel distance. So there... nnyya phfffft! Foul! Foul! flag thrown on the play.......
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Post by Curtis_Louis on Feb 8, 2018 2:46:04 GMT
edelweiss, I been reading this exchange and Honestly it's a bit hard to follow. What exactly is your point against Howler? Every post is almost a word salad. Did you argue that a 7-8" dagger is superior to a 12" bowie? Can you be a little more clear? No I did not argue any object was better. I repeat that size is not everything and I feel I would do fine, even with a Ka-Bar spork. That should probably be enough of an explanation and enough bold talk from this one-eyed fat man. I m not trying to convince anyone, simply voicing an opinion. Hey! I'm one-eyed also.
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Post by pgandy on Feb 8, 2018 2:47:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 2:53:05 GMT
A 1949 post Bowie Ames 1849 Rifelmans knife with a large longish blade. A nod to the utility remark but keep in mind it was meant more as a utility knife than a weapon. or they would have sold a hell of a lot of them if there was a need/market. www.rockislandauction.com/detail/56/1181/extraordinary-ames-us-model-1849-us-mounted-riflemans-knifeAmes did do bowies, so they were distinguishing between a clipped blade or not. Repros of the rifleman's are kind of common but not money I would waste on them unless found cheap and you can grind.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:10:19 GMT
edelweiss, I been reading this exchange and Honestly it's a bit hard to follow. What exactly is your point against Howler? Every post is almost a word salad. Did you argue that a 7-8" dagger is superior to a 12" bowie? Can you be a little more clear? No I did not argue any object was better. I repeat that size is not everything and I feel I would do fine, even with a Ka-Bar spork. That should probably be enough of an explanation and enough bold talk from this one-eyed fat man. I m not trying to convince anyone, simply voicing an opinion. I do argue that a short sword is GENERALLY (of course there are always particulars) superior to a knife, though I wont twist your arm into saying the obvious (though I might gently rib ya with a spork). That size is not everything is obviously true...to the point of not really needing to mention (even with equal variables, there is still the phone booth environment, for instance, or assassination). It is good that you possess defensive skills to the point of wielding the awesome and breath taking spork . Odin is a one-eyed fat man...though I see your on a diet with that word salad .
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:11:48 GMT
That's the one!!!! What thread was it in? God, what a beauty!
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 3:18:27 GMT
Oh, Ok..Well I understand this is your opinion and feeling with how you would fair in such a situation. Why do you think, then, that in almost no case through out history when blades were used far more often for actual combat then now did they actively choose smaller blades? There is some smaller combat blades that are historical, sure. But the vast majority of blades actually used for combat were relatively large by any standard. I think it's a bit silly for any of us to act like we possess some sort of "secret knowledge" that makes us capable of reinventing the wheel and capable enough to go against blades twice the length and mass with a 5-6" drop point hunting knife(someone mentioned something similar above). Well, Nternal, I'm TELLING YOU right effing now not to choose the 5 1/2" bladed 6oz. knife over the 12" bladed 24oz. short sword. But then, I really didn't have to tell you that, did I.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 3:25:11 GMT
Yet more than adequate for the past couple of centuries and we circle back to Bagwell, Keating, myself and a whole lot of others, many going by 20th century cqc and revisiting masters through history as the care to (with Keating forever preaching control and disabling, not fencing).
Bayonets took the place of a short sabre or hanger, even though the briquet, glaives and hangers hung on to the 20th century to do mostly fascine work. An Argentine 1909 bolo hanger an example of late hangers. Long sabre and knife bladed bayonets still carried into WWII and beyond with knives themselves (meant for utility and cqc) leveling out in the 7" range.
Just how did we get from dueling with knives to all small length blades over thousands of years?
Long rondel and other long skinny daggers in the day to better poke past the tin cans and iron lace. Not to fence with. Offhand daggers of the 17th century quite short lived (rapier and main gauche)
Context really is everything but the basics really kind of stay the same. Some seem to think knife fighting was as regular as civil duels were before the 19th century and that every hombre carried a big bowie to fight with. The gaucho would be an example (picture earlier) where large knife culture remained and rather culminating to their own end of fighting by the 20th century. The huge Iberian European navaja and Italian daggers as well, everybody pretty much calming down but the 20th century. The gaucho though, there are some old threads re dressed to kill in the SFI knife section.
Is there a filipino paralell in formal traditional dueling with blades?
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