Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 0:48:03 GMT
As an aside bladereviews.com/interview-with-master-at-arms-james-a-keating/Do note his timeline quotes No doubt that he is passionate, skilled and turning a profit. He has spent a lifetime doing what he enjoys. Entering MA around 1965, enjoying multiple disciplines. Assistant instructor a year or so later. A teaching studio in 1972.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 2:05:06 GMT
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 2:38:55 GMT
"Tip speed doubles (the flyswatter effect) with the longer lengths and the increased mass allows one to wield the blade as a short sword" Again, show me some math when you offer a blanket Tip speed doubles. Keating and Bagwell can pretty much kiss my butt. An edit to emphasize that my previous post addresses both in kind matched weapon dueling and practical use. Since there isn't a lot of dueling with matched weapons going on out there, I did mention realities. Keeping reality in mind, a grand niece's ex boyfriend stabbed and killed her then current suitor (1/29/2018). The ex, killing with a folding knife from his pocket. The motive? He felt he was being disrespected. Maybe there should have been a duel. From that Keating breif (and I have read lots of his babbling), this one struck a chord as something I have read in masters Keating adores "smite him in retaliation for his impudent attack" He did smite the impudent with a grete blow Can't help it, lol. Bagwell and the old mag and usenet roasts, I've read those too. Prison Bloody Iron I assume where howler got his comment in another thread about cons and shorter blades. Again, I am not knocking the precepts of matched weapon dueling/bouting but it is a circumstance few, if any, will encounter in real life and with intent to kill or maim. I like this line and too apropo. "People don't use weapons to fight, they use weapons to win" I could go on but I'm more interested in trying to find discussions of the Windlass I'm remembering. It goes without saying that nobody engages in bladed duels (bowies, swords, guns, whatever) nowadays and that most people injured by knives are probably done so by cheap machete, shank, box cutter, etc...so why are you saying it? And yes, in the modern world, nobody carry full sized swords, though there are a few who carry large bowie. This is a forum about objects that are historically interesting and often quite deadly. In fact, the post is about bowie knives. You can research yourself the advantages of leverage and tip speed given longer blades "fly swatter effect". I remember explaining to you (maybe I don't explain well, but you can research) but you mention the straight line when common sense dictates I'm talking side to side, arcs and such. The primary power of the large knife is the penetrating jab (it becomming a short sword), as you no longer need to use your body to generate (and telegraph) a punch. My main contention was (is) that a short sword (say 12" blade) is generally (unless your belly to belly in a phone booth...btw, do they even still have phone booths) superior (due to reasons given, though you may want to come up with your own reasons) to a knife (say 6" blade) in combat.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 5:05:03 GMT
" My main contention was (is) that a short sword (say 12" blade) is generally (unless your belly to belly in a phone booth...btw, do they even still have phone booths) superior (due to reasons given, though you may want to come up with your own reasons) to a knife (say 6" blade) in combat." Something you may or may not know about cqc is that the closer you are to your adversary, the better you may fare. That applies to fighting in general. You might also know Keating favors himself as expert with a short blade as a long one. I have already addressed what I feel comfortable with in length but have also repeatedly now addressed the op's thread starter and mention of longer blades, as well as posting a shorter blade treatise from the 19th century. You may or may not note the similarities across the board whether 6" dagger or a 36" sabre. In hoping to respond to your post in reverse notation, we then approach "In fact, the post is about bowie knives. You can research yourself the advantages of leverage and tip speed given longer blades "fly swatter effect". I remember explaining to you (maybe I don't explain well, but you can research) but you mention the straight line when common sense dictates I'm talking side to side, arcs and such. The primary power of the large knife is the penetrating jab (it becomming a short sword), as you no longer need to use your body to generate (and telegraph) a punch." None of what you continue to repeat is deaf, or unknown to me. What I was "attacking" was blanket assertions of "twice the speed" and asking for some math from you. I know how pivot points work. I also know something of basic physics and mass in motion but give me some math regarding, say of the tip speed difference between a six vs twelve inch blade, pivoting at grip (your wrist). Is the tip speed of the 12" blade double that of the 6"? The tip speed of an 18" blade with the same pivot. This read as more of a geometry question, no? I dunno show me the math of radius and circumference differences of the three given lengths. I know folks like Vincent Le Chevalier thrive on the math aspects of these things but I don't so much while still not accepting your "twice the speed" without some math. blog.subcaelo.net/ensis/documenting-dynamics-of-swords/As to distance, I rely on stuff like Silver and Marozzo. Or basic cqc if you like. I started with Judo, just like Keating. I could dig up Keating videos of short blades defeating long ones but that's not really my point either. Keating is my generation, Mr Bagwell a decade older and we have all gone over some of the same material. I collect lots of 18th and 19th century swords, have read through lots of drills. As old and tired I am (not really) I have plenty of time to reminisce about wasted youth. Really, they can kiss my butt. Just as you might be feeling about me. What I am not doing is denying other's activities, simply questioning some assertions. I suppose the tip speed thing could come across like a Monty Python line....and it does! Let's see some math?
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 9,877
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 7, 2018 5:57:18 GMT
I found it, I found it! v = d/t
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 6:33:30 GMT
" My main contention was (is) that a short sword (say 12" blade) is generally (unless your belly to belly in a phone booth...btw, do they even still have phone booths) superior (due to reasons given, though you may want to come up with your own reasons) to a knife (say 6" blade) in combat." Something you may or may not know about cqc is that the closer you are to your adversary, the better you may fare. That applies to fighting in general. You might also know Keating favors himself as expert with a short blade as a long one. I have already addressed what I feel comfortable with in length but have also repeatedly now addressed the op's thread starter and mention of longer blades, as well as posting a shorter blade treatise from the 19th century. You may or may not note the similarities across the board whether 6" dagger or a 36" sabre. In hoping to respond to your post in reverse notation, we then approach "In fact, the post is about bowie knives. You can research yourself the advantages of leverage and tip speed given longer blades "fly swatter effect". I remember explaining to you (maybe I don't explain well, but you can research) but you mention the straight line when common sense dictates I'm talking side to side, arcs and such. The primary power of the large knife is the penetrating jab (it becomming a short sword), as you no longer need to use your body to generate (and telegraph) a punch." None of what you continue to repeat is deaf, or unknown to me. What I was "attacking" was blanket assertions of "twice the speed" and asking for some math from you. I know how pivot points work. I also know something of basic physics and mass in motion but give me some math regarding, say of the tip speed difference between a six vs twelve inch blade, pivoting at grip (your wrist). Is the tip speed of the 12" blade double that of the 6"? The tip speed of an 18" blade with the same pivot. This read as more of a geometry question, no? I dunno show me the math of radius and circumference differences of the three given lengths. I know folks like Vincent Le Chevalier thrive on the math aspects of these things but I don't so much while still not accepting your "twice the speed" without some math. blog.subcaelo.net/ensis/documenting-dynamics-of-swords/As to distance, I rely on stuff like Silver and Marozzo. Or basic cqc if you like. I started with Judo, just like Keating. I could dig up Keating videos of short blades defeating long ones but that's not really my point either. Keating is my generation, Mr Bagwell a decade older and we have all gone over some of the same material. I collect lots of 18th and 19th century swords, have read through lots of drills. As old and tired I am (not really) I have plenty of time to reminisce about wasted youth. Really, they can kiss my butt. Just as you might be feeling about me. What I am not doing is denying other's activities, simply questioning some assertions. I suppose the tip speed thing could come across like a Monty Python line....and it does! Let's see some math? Your probably better at math than I (what do you expect from a fine arts major ), and you sure as heck care more about the exact particulars. You seem to be a prickly stickler for details...nothing wrong with that as long as you don't get an ulcer (anyone who likes Python MUST have a soft fuzzy side and sleep well at night). I do know that the exact numbers change with the variables, as tip speed comparing a 6" and 9" blade will be different than, say, a 7" and an 11"...or is it. I was just blowing ballpark while envisioning a 5-8" and something huge (over 12"), so I guess I should have said ALOT (in capitals, of course) faster, and that you obviously know the fly swatter effect..."nothing more dangerous than a wounded mosquito". My main goal is in trumpeting the virtues of knife becoming short sword, and how it becomes a different animal by virtue of tip speed as well as the jabbing lunge. I am now curious as to seeing a list of various blade length combinations where tip speed is mathematically doubled, say 10" is twice that of 6", and if the numbers stay the same as size is increased. I heard somewhere, years ago (I know, not scientific) that the speed advantage started after 9" (that's what she said ).
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 7:06:07 GMT
I found it, I found it! v = d/t Now use it to make a graph illustrating % increase while comparing blade sizes...and bring be a beer while your at it. Drink
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 9:08:25 GMT
I'm a stickler for detail, true. Group A has 30% fewer cavities than group B. What does that tell us?. Your flick is useless if blocked and you get ripped by the guy up close with the kerambit. Somewhat similarly re speed, a 30" arm with a six inch blade attached during a blow is traveling a whole heck of a lot faster than fly swatting from your wrist. Telegraphed or not, bigger moves might often pave the right of way inside of your guard (if only to grab at your knife hand). The first knife treatise I read was in the 1960s (old WWII stuff). The first sword treatise I read was Silver's Paradox of Defense. I learned a lot, regarding distance from Silver. How much effort can you put into a swat if the other is inside your guard while they are raking you with a blow? At best fly swatting at some distance may occasionally be useful. In combat manuals (and others) hand to hand with a knife or bayonet is not fencing. Dueling/bouting with similar and long bowies, well have at it. I note Keating has added a spear point Crossada to entice us dagger enthusiasts. I'm sure these will sell www.bladeforums.com/threads/in-development.1536454/
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 9:34:45 GMT
I'm a stickler for detail, true. Group A has 30% fewer cavities than group B. What does that tell us?. Your flick is useless if blocked and you get ripped by the guy up close with the kerambit. Somewhat similarly re speed, a 30" arm with a six inch blade attached during a blow is traveling a whole heck of a lot faster than fly swatting from your wrist. Telegraphed or not, bigger moves might often pave the right of way inside of your guard (if only to grab at your knife hand). The first knife treatise I read was in the 1960s (old WWII stuff). The first sword treatise I read was Silver's Paradox of Defense. I learned a lot, regarding distance from Silver. How much effort can you put into a swat if the other is inside your guard while they are raking you with a blow? At best fly swatting at some distance may occasionally be useful. In combat manuals (and others) hand to hand with a knife or bayonet is not fencing. Dueling/bouting with similar and long bowies, well have at it. I note Keating has added a spear point Crossada to entice us dagger enthusiasts. I'm sure these will sell www.bladeforums.com/threads/in-development.1536454/I guess I have to ask. In an open field (you HAD to fight, btw), level ground, lightly clothed, and standing 30 feet away, would you feel that a 6" blade to be generally equal (or superior) to a 12" heavy bowie (what about 14" blade, 15"...any minimum size)? Remember now, the 12" can be employed as a short sword. Bottom line, short sword vs. knife. Btw, those things look cool (would you pick the 6" knife over one of them...cuz if so I'd have to hold my breath to lose consciousness and kill me some brain cells). Gulp
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 11:06:16 GMT
If I was fielding a knife of six inches, I would make due. If I had my druthers, it would be an eight inch dagger. Of my Tai Pan or Randall, the Randall, despite the grind of the Tai Pan. It is a point and balance difference.
Honestly, if you look at a lot of Keating videos, he often chooses to use a dagger simulator about seven or eight inches against his students using twelve plus inch bowies. He does get into feinting rambles at times but he is much more a poke and slash inside during or after trapping the opponent's knife hand. Bare hand, similarly. Get in, get control, get it done and leave.
There was an ancient discussion with Hank Reinhart discussing a series of bouts. Swapping back and forth with a kuhkri and a smallsword. He dominated with either weapon. Windmilling (Keating rotational 8s what have you) with the kuhkri and playing sewing machine when he had the smallsword.
So yes, I'd be comfortable with a shorter blade than the opponent in the field. Would I win? Who knows.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 20:52:04 GMT
If I was fielding a knife of six inches, I would make due. If I had my druthers, it would be an eight inch dagger. Of my Tai Pan or Randall, the Randall, despite the grind of the Tai Pan. It is a point and balance difference. Honestly, if you look at a lot of Keating videos, he often chooses to use a dagger simulator about seven or eight inches against his students using twelve plus inch bowies. He does get into feinting rambles at times but he is much more a poke and slash inside during or after trapping the opponent's knife hand. Bare hand, similarly. Get in, get control, get it done and leave. There was an ancient discussion with Hank Reinhart discussing a series of bouts. Swapping back and forth with a kuhkri and a smallsword. He dominated with either weapon. Windmilling (Keating rotational 8s what have you) with the kuhkri and playing sewing machine when he had the smallsword. So yes, I'd be comfortable with a shorter blade than the opponent in the field. Would I win? Who knows. You shouldn't be so comfy with that 7 1/2" bladed, 10 1/2 oz. Tia Pan when going up against an equally skilled dude with a 15" bladed short sword (massive reach advantage, power to take off an arm, killing jab instead of telegraphing stab, more than twice the speed, etc, etc, etc...) Gladius, wakizashi, massive bowies and messer, short swords are good stuff. Nobody takes a knife to a short sword fight unless they have to, because with a short sword you don't have to fight like you only have a knife. You march to the beat of your own drum (probably why I like these conversations with a contrarian like yourself), but your the only person on this forum that would knowingly make such a choice of knife over short sword.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 21:32:22 GMT
Personally, as far as „realism“ is concerned, I dare to say I see a „bowie“ of 12“ of blade length as pretty much ideal, if it has a sharpened swedge. Aside from the carrying/drawing aspect, it gives you a whole lot from a standing position. It’s even possible to oppose much longer weapons (especially in confined spaces, where it can even give an advantage). Also, a guard may be nice to have, but adds weight to a spot where it’s not needed for striking, right before the hand – and, as far as “defense” (not that I want to strain a contrastive pair of “defense” and “offense”) is concerned, it is not really needed for solid tactics/techniques. The chances a small guard will safe your hand from the opponent’s strike are minimal, at best. And how many times do you see people performing blade trapping actions or fancy disarms in sparring? I’d say not very often. A 12” blade with some heft to it can parry/deflect a longer/heavier weapon and alter or even end the fight with one decent cut. Too heavy a blade, though, and it will be harder to get the first hit in and to follow up in time. I’m happy guessing that a broad blade of 12” deep in the body feels a bit different than 8”, too. Yeah, the 12" bladed bowie can fight more easily "close in", like Edelweiss was talking about, when using shorter blades. 12" is also near the max that a person can conceal.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 21:32:34 GMT
At the risk of repeating myself, my choice was my Randall 2-8 but would be fine if six inches of something was all that was at hand. My DeLeon even heavier as is my Gerber BMF.
Equally skilled at what? Internet discussion hyperbole?
I have short swords, medium swords and longswords. So what?
You are only going to take an arm off with even a large bowie (in the lineup we have shown thus far) if the opponent stands there and lets you do it. Again, I would refer back to your dude Keating and his slashing and poking. He has never (ever to my knowledge) mentioned he could take an arm off in a knife fight. Bleed them out? Sure. Otherwise incapacitate the opponent? Sure, that is what the discussion has become. Not some fascination with larger knives that Keating himself doesn't bout much with due to weight and speed. The trainers he gives his video opponents are quite slow compared to the aforementioned small crossada/dagger shown in a lot of his "coaching".
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 21:43:34 GMT
At the risk of repeating myself, my choice was my Randall 2-8 but would be fine if six inches of something was all that was at hand. My DeLeon even heavier as is my Gerber BMF. Equally skilled at what? Internet discussion hyperbole? I have short swords, medium swords and longswords. So what? You are only going to take an arm off with even a large bowie (in the lineup we have shown thus far) if the opponent stands there and lets you do it. Again, I would refer back to your dude Keating and his slashing and poking. He has never (ever to my knowledge) mentioned he could take an arm off in a knife fight. Bleed them out? Sure. Otherwise incapacitate the opponent? Sure, that is what the discussion has become. Not some fascination with larger knives that Keating himself doesn't bout much with due to weight and speed. The trainers he gives his video opponents are quite slow compared to the aforementioned small crossada/dagger shown in a lot of his "coaching". Keating is a proponent of being able to fight with all types of bladed weapons, as small knives, folders, etc...are mighty easy to carry and conceal in the modern world (and you don't break local knife laws). He has a YouTube video demonstration in Hells Canyon that was informative for me. But he (and Bagwell) are also VERY clear in the superiority of a large blade/short sword like the bowie. My bottom line contention is that you (and ANYONE on Gods green Earth) would pick one of your short swords before a mere knife if given a choice. Do NOT take a knife to a small sword fight.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 7, 2018 22:12:09 GMT
I'd actually stick with a smaller weapon, myself. Ultimately, I'd be just as likely to fend off a guy with a knife without using one of my own. More hands to obstruct his blade, fewer sharp things in the middle.
Daily, when not at work, I carry a Citadel Trapper on my right hip. It's got about a 5.5" blade and is very hefty, with ergonomics geared more to utility than fighting (hence why I carry it) but I imagine it would suffice should it be pressed in the role of offense. There is no defense in a knife, after all.
As edelweiss has suggested, the best approach is simply to move in and control distance first, then your attacker's arm and thus weapon. One could do so with a half-decent stick picked off the ground.
A knife much over 8" is unnecessary and impractical for daily carry. Even the most recent military applications of a fighting knife employed a 6"-or-shorter dagger. Except the ghurkas, but those guys are exceptions to nearly everything.
Now, for collection and backyard cutting sake, the big Bowie's are plenty of fun. I wish I could have kept the knife Tom K made for that Forged in SBG thing, ages back. I think it went to Bennett Snipes, who I believe has since sold it on again...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 22:22:02 GMT
Ok, the hell with it. I'll bring my limb chopping short sword. Don't forget, you have to stand right there and promise not to move. Ok? Look, you continue to both support and deny what "the master at arms" has to offer while being unable to understand I simply don't agree with your premises. As well as knowing of both Keating and Bagwell in the 1980s. You re not posting anything I am not already familiar with and the discussion has been a bit repetitive, post to post. Do find me some references on limbing with a large "bowie" No math required, just honest and certifiable references, photos or videos. Something like this might be close. Or entertaining anyway. or Do it with a little style NOR DO YOU NEED TO SHOUT TO BE READ Heads up! Yes I have seen and participated in cutting stuff with short blades. Just sayin', moving and standing still anchored are two different dynamics. Yes, I would rather get close with blades less than a couple of feet. Step on your toes, pick your nose. Avoid contact at all unless pressed or some need for urgency.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 22:22:31 GMT
I'd actually stick with a smaller weapon, myself. Ultimately, I'd be just as likely to fend off a guy with a knife without using one of my own. More hands to obstruct his blade, fewer sharp things in the middle. Daily, when not at work, I carry a Citadel Trapper on my right hip. It's got about a 5.5" blade and is very hefty, with ergonomics geared more to utility than fighting (hence why I carry it) but I imagine it would suffice should it be pressed in the role of offense. There is no defense in a knife, after all. As edelweiss has suggested, the best approach is simply to move in and control distance first, then your attacker's arm and thus weapon. One could do so with a half-decent stick picked off the ground. A knife much over 8" is unnecessary and impractical for daily carry. Even the most recent military applications of a fighting knife employed a 6"-or-shorter dagger. Except the ghurkas, but those guys are exceptions to nearly everything. Now, for collection and backyard cutting sake, the big Bowie's are plenty of fun. I wish I could have kept the knife Tom K made for that Forged in SBG thing, ages back. I think it went to Bennett Snipes, who I believe has since sold it on again... Jeez...another vote for small knife over short sword. Hahahaha I'm in an alternate reality and forced to choose a plastic spork. So be it. The Roman Legions should have chucked their gladius (I know...shields and formation tactics were what made the diff...but I'm having fun here) and stuck with the side dagger.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2018 22:29:15 GMT
Ok, the hell with it. I'll bring my limb chopping short sword. Don't forget, you have to stand right there and promise not to move. Ok? Look, you continue to both support and deny what "the master at arms" has to offer while being unable to understand I simply don't agree with your premises. As well as knowing of both Keating and Bagwell in the 1980s. You re not posting anything I am not already familiar with and the discussion has been a bit repetitive, post to post. Do find me some references on limbing with a large "bowie" No math required, just honest and certifiable references, photos or videos. Something like this might be close. Or entertaining anyway. or Do it with a little style NOR DO YOU NEED TO SHOUT TO BE READ Heads up! Yes I have seen and participated in cutting stuff with short blades. Just sayin', moving and standing still anchored are two different dynamics. Yes, I would rather get close with blades less than a couple of feet. Step on your toes, pick your nose. Avoid contact at all unless pressed or some need for urgency. Yup I simultaneously disagree with your premise while FULLY (in caps) agree with the choice of your first picture (though I dig your second picture...yiks). You got that beast in the first picture (a beauty, btw) and I got a CS Tia pan...I'm freaking RUNNING (in caps)!
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Feb 7, 2018 22:38:43 GMT
Jeez...another vote for small knife over short sword. Hahahaha I'm in an alternate reality and forced to choose a plastic spork.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 22:42:55 GMT
The French 1816 and US 1832 are meant for chopping wood, horse traces, etc. The World's wars were often won or lost from abundance or lack of fascine work.
The US 1841 cutlass, similar to the French 1831 gladius/glaive is lighter and more fencible.
The 1832 pictured weighs more than my ATrim Xiiia.
Can I bring a spadroon to the dance? A true short sabre?
Context is really everything. I still can't find the old Windlass fighting bowies.
|
|