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Post by howler on Jan 7, 2024 20:24:38 GMT
Yup, they don't jam, but revolvers can't enjoy the advantage of having 13-20 rounds of double stack semi-auto goodness, as I can only max out at 8 rounds with my Ruger Redhawk and S&W 627. Wonder what type of .357 round was used on that dog, as I noted the HUGE performance variation inherent in the caliber. A proper high energy hollow point should blow it's freaking brains out. I know it was HP .357 magnum defensive load, something like 124 gr. but It's been almost 30 years, so I'm not sure 100% about the grain. They were nickel plated cases so not the cheap stuff.
Even if was a snub .38 at that range, and that kind of shot, I'm not sure it make much a of a difference.
While I have m own personal bias, This guy makes some sense:
" Realistic Expectations: I think this is where we go astray; we expect way too much from our handguns. Hunters have known that seemingly equivalent shots on similar animals can produce very differing results. One may instantly drop while the other runs, yet both received lethal hits to the heart/lung area. This is so often seen that's it's accepted. Deadly force scenarios for most of us are much rarer and there are folks interested in self-protection that have no experience in hunting; they have never seen anything shot. They have never seen a deer with a shredded heart run a hundred yards.....If a 150 pound deer can be shot through the heart with a .30-06 180-gr. expanding bullet at 2700 ft/sec and keep moving, should we expect that a 200 pound human hit with a 180-gr. expanding forty-caliber bullet at 975 ft/sec to be instantly incapacitated?....The high-velocity rifle bullet doesn't always stop the game animal even with good hits, but normally the animal will not run as far before dying as when hit with an arrow. Even though hemorrhaging severely, they can go surprising distances if too quickly pursued. Adrenaline and the will to live push them beyond what many consider possible."
From: "Have No Faith in Your Defensive Handgun Caliber or Load! (Or Why I don't Get Involved in "Caliber Wars.") "
.357 REALLY suffers when shot from a snub (sub 2") barrel. I mean like the round is essentially castrated . All noise and blinding flash. And not a good choice if using a weak .38 round (sub 200 ft. lbs. energy). You can still choose a better round pushing 4 times the energy while trying to keeping that energy inside the dogs skull and not wasted in the ground beyond. But, yeah, rifle rounds are exponential, helped so much by 16+" barrels. A little .556 round can dump 44magnum energy into 12-14" of ballistic gel and not over penetrate like a 44 magnum handgun round.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 7, 2024 21:18:46 GMT
There are a few tests with barrel lenth and speed/kinetic energy, and it is relatively linear for a while, but when you get short enough it drops really fast. And the shorter the barrel and the more powder there is to burn, the bigger the bang and fireball, but you won't get more energy. Animal tissue has an immense amount of flexibility, and most pistols (except the really outrageous ones) dont have enough energy to expend into the tissue to rip it as dramatically as rifles do. You know, I bet the snub 357 won't have enough power to open the hollow point fully. Not that it could not kill. EDIT Unfortunately both camps of people are very numerous: Those wo heavily overrate guns, and those who heavily underrste them. I have heard many times ".22lr is just like an air rifle", though it is not and we should not act as if it were. Knowing your guns real capability is probably the thing that's missing from most people. "I'll just shoot him in the legs so I can ru away and he can't follow" or "my .45 doesnt need to hit vital organs to be deadly" or "my .22 is just as capable because I always hit perfectly" Some I have heard from friends, some I have read on the net. Unfortunately you can't get some people to see the reality. Until it bites them on the behind at least.
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Post by izzy on Jan 8, 2024 0:06:41 GMT
I know it was HP .357 magnum defensive load, something like 124 gr. but It's been almost 30 years, so I'm not sure 100% about the grain. They were nickel plated cases so not the cheap stuff.
Even if was a snub .38 at that range, and that kind of shot, I'm not sure it make much a of a difference.
While I have m own personal bias, This guy makes some sense:
" Realistic Expectations: I think this is where we go astray; we expect way too much from our handguns. Hunters have known that seemingly equivalent shots on similar animals can produce very differing results. One may instantly drop while the other runs, yet both received lethal hits to the heart/lung area. This is so often seen that's it's accepted. Deadly force scenarios for most of us are much rarer and there are folks interested in self-protection that have no experience in hunting; they have never seen anything shot. They have never seen a deer with a shredded heart run a hundred yards.....If a 150 pound deer can be shot through the heart with a .30-06 180-gr. expanding bullet at 2700 ft/sec and keep moving, should we expect that a 200 pound human hit with a 180-gr. expanding forty-caliber bullet at 975 ft/sec to be instantly incapacitated?....The high-velocity rifle bullet doesn't always stop the game animal even with good hits, but normally the animal will not run as far before dying as when hit with an arrow. Even though hemorrhaging severely, they can go surprising distances if too quickly pursued. Adrenaline and the will to live push them beyond what many consider possible."
From: "Have No Faith in Your Defensive Handgun Caliber or Load! (Or Why I don't Get Involved in "Caliber Wars.") "
.357 REALLY suffers when shot from a snub (sub 2") barrel. I mean like the round is essentially castrated . All noise and blinding flash. And not a good choice if using a weak .38 round (sub 200 ft. lbs. energy). You can still choose a better round pushing 4 times the energy while trying to keeping that energy inside the dogs skull and not wasted in the ground beyond. But, yeah, rifle rounds are exponential, helped so much by 16+" barrels. A little .556 round can dump 44magnum energy into 12-14" of ballistic gel and not over penetrate like a 44 magnum handgun round. This was at least a 4 Inch barrel .357 Magnum, with some kind of "premium" HP .357 Magnum load, at point blank range.
I know about ,357 Mag not burning it's powder in shorter barrels, this was not that short.
I still think if this had been a 2" barrel .38 special with FMJ RNL, or HP it would inflict a mortal wound all the same, esp. at that range ( almost point blank ) that is my point.... .38 Special is anemic ( especially non + P rounds), no it's not ideal, but it should pierce the skull and make holes in the brain. I wold take hot European FMJ 7.65X17 FMJ ( Fiocci, S&B) over a .38 Snubbie...but even that would do the trick.
I doubt a .38 Special on a mid-size dog would be worse than a captive bolt used on cows ( mostly) that only goes 55mm into the skull:
( Two out 3 devices use short and small 6mm blanks)
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Post by howler on Jan 8, 2024 1:29:16 GMT
There are a few tests with barrel lenth and speed/kinetic energy, and it is relatively linear for a while, but when you get short enough it drops really fast. And the shorter the barrel and the more powder there is to burn, the bigger the bang and fireball, but you won't get more energy. Animal tissue has an immense amount of flexibility, and most pistols (except the really outrageous ones) dont have enough energy to expend into the tissue to rip it as dramatically as rifles do. You know, I bet the snub 357 won't have enough power to open the hollow point fully. Not that it could not kill. EDIT Unfortunately both camps of people are very numerous: Those wo heavily overrate guns, and those who heavily underrste them. I have heard many times ".22lr is just like an air rifle", though it is not and we should not act as if it were. Knowing your guns real capability is probably the thing that's missing from most people. "I'll just shoot him in the legs so I can ru away and he can't follow" or "my .45 doesnt need to hit vital organs to be deadly" or "my .22 is just as capable because I always hit perfectly" Some I have heard from friends, some I have read on the net. Unfortunately you can't get some people to see the reality. Until it bites them on the behind at least. The late Chuck Karwan (among others) was a big believer in rounds that gave near 500 to 700 foot pounds of energy (any higher didn't matter much) while not over penetrating. The effect is like a punch (if the bullet is close enough) to a nerve center (like solar plexus) you would see in boxing, for instance, where there is no permanent observable damage but the person is temporarily incapacitated. An important thing to remember, you MUST NOT rely on this alone because some people can be in a mental, physical state (psycho on drugs) where there could be no effect at all. Pick a good hollow point in as powerful a caliber as you can shoot effectively, knowing that "effectively" means a lot of things.
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Post by howler on Jan 8, 2024 1:33:48 GMT
This was at least a 4 Inch barrel .357 Magnum, with some kind of "premium" HP .357 Magnum load, at point blank range.
I know about ,357 Mag not burning it's powder in shorter barrels, this was not that short.
I still think if this had been a 2" barrel .38 special with FMJ RNL, or HP it would inflict a mortal wound all the same, esp. at that range ( almost point blank ) that is my point.... .38 Special is anemic ( especially non + P rounds), no it's not ideal, but it should pierce the skull and make holes in the brain. I wold take hot European FMJ 7.65X17 FMJ ( Fiocci, S&B) over a .38 Snubbie...but even that would do the trick.
I doubt a .38 Special on a mid-size dog would be worse than a captive bolt used on cows ( mostly) that only goes 55mm into the skull:
( Two out 3 devices use short and small 6mm blanks)
It sounds like that dog went to doggy heaven the second the first shot hit and did not feel a thing, and yes, even a .38 special to the dome would/should have done the trick. All the other stuff was just involuntary muscle contractions, so no suffering (at least that's what an animal lover like myself says to myself ).
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Post by shinycanoe on Jan 8, 2024 4:26:08 GMT
How come nobody has mentioned keeping an APOC or something next to their bed? Good penetration with low probability of going through a wall.
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Post by izzy on Jan 8, 2024 21:58:48 GMT
How come nobody has mentioned keeping an APOC or something next to their bed? Good penetration with low probability of going through a wall. Well it's sword forum, I'm sure many of us do. I will confine this post to a home in built up area, as rural areas are very different.
Swords have limited reach, tight spaces will limit to mostly stabbing with a shorter sword ( and less reach). Of course if an intruder is armed with a firearm...then the best answer is use a firearm. Even more so if there are multiple intruders/ attackers.
In reality one never knows what weapon will be used against you in the future, or by how many attackers...so it's best to prepare for the worst. There are cases where a homeowner dispatched a BG with a Katana, it's not unknown...so it can be done, the only question is would you bet your life, or the life your loved ones on it?
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Post by Tiers1 on Jan 8, 2024 22:13:54 GMT
Just wanted to thank everyone for their input!
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Post by howler on Jan 9, 2024 0:31:21 GMT
How come nobody has mentioned keeping an APOC or something next to their bed? Good penetration with low probability of going through a wall. This has often been discussed in various posts. Blades can work well. Short one handed single & double edged. Two handed shorter blades. Maybe a shield. Blades with hand protection are a plus, like CS cutlass.
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Post by shinycanoe on Jan 9, 2024 5:36:04 GMT
I assumed that must be a topic of discussion somewhere. Some people keep a baseball bat handy; makes sense that some people on this forum might switch that out for a sword. I agree with what has already been said, I worry more about coming home and surprising an intruder than being attacked while I'm already in my house. For that reason I almost always have a small firearm with me, but I understand that's not an option in all states or countries. I rely on a good dog and cameras that alert me on my phone when people are around. I grew up with guns, so to me caliber is almost unimportant, unless there's body armor in the mix. I'll add my endorsement for practicing with whatever you decide to use. I personally like getting outside to shoot in a different environment from the formal indoor lanes.
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Post by izzy on Jan 9, 2024 7:43:56 GMT
I assumed that must be a topic of discussion somewhere. Some people keep a baseball bat handy; makes sense that some people on this forum might switch that out for a sword. I agree with what has already been said, I worry more about coming home and surprising an intruder than being attacked while I'm already in my house. For that reason I almost always have a small firearm with me, but I understand that's not an option in all states or countries. I rely on a good dog and cameras that alert me on my phone when people are around. I grew up with guns, so to me caliber is almost unimportant, unless there's body armor in the mix. I'll add my endorsement for practicing with whatever you decide to use. I personally like getting outside to shoot in a different environment from the formal indoor lanes. Yep that is a big concern, driveway / garage attacks. If the BG pulls the gun first then it's a very difficult situation. One is quite confined in a vehicle, and the best holster carry is the Cross Draw, but one also has less conventional options to explore...a good dog will help, especially in keeping people out of the yard.
Baseball bats, if they get close that's a no go, and it's not too hard for a BG to avoid getting hit, but one does their best given the laws in any Jurisdiction.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 9, 2024 14:46:20 GMT
I assumed that must be a topic of discussion somewhere. Some people keep a baseball bat handy; makes sense that some people on this forum might switch that out for a sword. I agree with what has already been said, I worry more about coming home and surprising an intruder than being attacked while I'm already in my house. For that reason I almost always have a small firearm with me, but I understand that's not an option in all states or countries. I rely on a good dog and cameras that alert me on my phone when people are around. I grew up with guns, so to me caliber is almost unimportant, unless there's body armor in the mix. I'll add my endorsement for practicing with whatever you decide to use. I personally like getting outside to shoot in a different environment from the formal indoor lanes. Yep that is a big concern, driveway / garage attacks. If the BG pulls the gun first then it's a very difficult situation. One is quite confined in a vehicle, and the best holster carry is the Cross Draw, but one also has less conventional options to explore...a good dog will help, especially in keeping people out of the yard.
Baseball bats, if they get close that's a no go, and it's not too hard for a BG to avoid getting hit, but one does their best given the laws in any Jurisdiction.
Yup. You are most vulnerable leaving or arriving at your home. Also walking into your home and finding a burglary in process. It's too bad our Government doesn't keep these career criminals in prison.
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Post by howler on Jan 9, 2024 17:34:02 GMT
Yep that is a big concern, driveway / garage attacks. If the BG pulls the gun first then it's a very difficult situation. One is quite confined in a vehicle, and the best holster carry is the Cross Draw, but one also has less conventional options to explore...a good dog will help, especially in keeping people out of the yard.
Baseball bats, if they get close that's a no go, and it's not too hard for a BG to avoid getting hit, but one does their best given the laws in any Jurisdiction.
Yup. You are most vulnerable leaving or arriving at your home. Also walking into your home and finding a burglary in process. It's too bad our Government doesn't keep these career criminals in prison. Luckily, the perp who had the drop did not pull the trigger (or the gun jammed, or was unloaded/fake) when the guy swung around.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 9, 2024 18:49:32 GMT
I saw a video of another guy recently who was not so lucky. Made a stupid decision in showing his weapon with his back turned to them. Got shot twice before he was able to turn around, but survived. Can't find the video right now, was on the "Active Self Protection" youtube channel. He could have very likely won without getting shot, the thugs flinched when they saw he noticed them, but standing with his back to them he drew his weapon, probably thinking they would run. Something to keep in mind: Don't be overconfident.
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Post by izzy on Jan 10, 2024 15:39:02 GMT
I saw a video of another guy recently who was not so lucky. Made a stupid decision in showing his weapon with his back turned to them. Got shot twice before he was able to turn around, but survived. Can't find the video right now, was on the "Active Self Protection" youtube channel. He could have very likely won without getting shot, the thugs flinched when they saw he noticed them, but standing with his back to them he drew his weapon, probably thinking they would run. Something to keep in mind: Don't be overconfident. Well that's a bad move, to turn ones back on an attacker (unless one uses the "nike" defense [ run]. )
Maybe he thought the draw would be less noticeable if he turned around? Poor judgement...
Over confidence is as bad as a lack of confidence.
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Post by izzy on Jan 10, 2024 17:02:37 GMT
Yep that is a big concern, driveway / garage attacks. If the BG pulls the gun first then it's a very difficult situation. One is quite confined in a vehicle, and the best holster carry is the Cross Draw, but one also has less conventional options to explore...a good dog will help, especially in keeping people out of the yard.
Baseball bats, if they get close that's a no go, and it's not too hard for a BG to avoid getting hit, but one does their best given the laws in any Jurisdiction.
Yup. You are most vulnerable leaving or arriving at your home. Also walking into your home and finding a burglary in process. It's too bad our Government doesn't keep these career criminals in prison.
I'm pretty sure I saw the criminal pop off a round on the way out, but it looked to me like the one with the gun hesitated and let the other crook ( with a knife?) deal with the homeowner....decisive action there on the part of the good citizen.
.gov just does not want to admit they don't want to pay ( or are too much in debt) to warehouse such animals, so they adopted a lenient tone. If I felt the current system was fair I'd be advocating the rope, since I don't have much confidence in the system, I wish states would bring back chain gang work for the really bad ones, anything useful and productive.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 10, 2024 17:14:48 GMT
I saw a video of another guy recently who was not so lucky. Made a stupid decision in showing his weapon with his back turned to them. Got shot twice before he was able to turn around, but survived. Can't find the video right now, was on the "Active Self Protection" youtube channel. He could have very likely won without getting shot, the thugs flinched when they saw he noticed them, but standing with his back to them he drew his weapon, probably thinking they would run. Something to keep in mind: Don't be overconfident. Well that's a bad move, to turn ones back on an attacker (unless one uses the "nike" defense [ run]. )
Maybe he thought the draw would be less noticeable if he turned around? Poor judgement...
Over confidence is as bad as a lack of confidence. Nope, he literally showed the gun. No idea what he was thinking, probably "look, I got a gun, fear me!"
Little warning, you can see the shots landing.
Very weird reaction. He saw them, knew they were there, they knew he knew and he just showed his hand.
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Post by izzy on Jan 10, 2024 17:36:27 GMT
Ah, I see you found the clip. Brandishing ( being Cocky) is not usually a good idea...unless it's pointed at the target, and one had better be pretty darn sure ( or at least reasonably sure) their going to shoot.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 10, 2024 17:49:29 GMT
Found another clip that might be interesting because a knife is used.
The guy gets stabbed a bazillion times and still gets away, at least until he shows up at the hospital in critical condition. That's exactly why I don't think blades are a good choice. I mean if you don't have anything else, it's better than nothing. I don't think a sword will make that big of a difference in a small room, you should be prepared to be stabbing, fighting and slashing for a while. A few minutes at the least.
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Post by shinycanoe on Jan 10, 2024 18:11:42 GMT
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