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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 24, 2009 14:13:59 GMT
I'm glad she hurt him, it might make him activate some neurons, but it shouldn't have never happened, poor chick, glad it was her and not my fragile little wife.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2009 14:27:32 GMT
This seems like one of those situations where no matter how she went about handling things, there would be someone that says "she should have done :blank:"... In this case i doubt she even had time to properly process exactly what her options were. Her training kicking in, and she clobbered the guy. Left him lying on the ground... She probably could have hurt him much much worse, or possibly killed him,... but she didn't. I don't see what's so hard with people saying "ah salute" and feeling good about another "win for the good guys" in this world. But no matter what she did, someone would think she did the wrong thing. Fight the guy off successfully.... wrong thing to do? WHAT? What if she submitted (as recommended) and ended up gutted?.... i suppose the opinions here might be different aye? Or if she fought back and got gutted...? Or submitted and was unharmed? NONE OF THAT MATTERS... She obviously did the right thing for her situation, because she was successful. I think she did great, and as luck would have it, the perp couldn't have picked a tougher target.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2009 14:56:33 GMT
Nice job no her part. Hopefully the guys will think twice before trying something like this again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2009 16:01:25 GMT
It took place during the day because afterward she went back to her office to call the police. I assume most offices are closed at night. Yes, screaming would have been a good response. Tossing the keys at him while running away at the same time. This whole idea that "it turned out OK so good for her" is rediculous! As I said, if she was defending her life and had/saw no other option then fine. That wasn't the case here. I wish sarah was still with us so she could give us her perspective! Well your assumption may not be correct; she's not a secretary, she's a NURSE- I don't know how things are run on the Gold Coast but I can tell you this- HOSPITALS, where you'll find a great many nurses, DO NOT CLOSE. Its a fact. Here's another one for you- most hospital parking lots tend to be full during the day; most of their business is transacted during daylight hours. Since the parking lot where she worked was EMPTY, I think it might be safe to say that it was probably after dark/before dawn as it was empty. I've yet to see an open, fully functioning hospital with an EMPTY parking lot during the DAY. But that's just me. And just so we're clear, I understand where you're coming from but I don't agree. If you'd want your wife to acquiesce to a criminal's demands, by all means, counsel her to do so. Me? I already know my wife's not going to go down w/out a fight unless she sees no other option (dark, secluded, he has a gun, no escape route, that sorta thing); God forbid but if anything were to ever happen to the one YOU love, acquiescence won't necessarily save their life or assuage your feelings of impotence (by not being there to save/help her) these days.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2009 16:27:12 GMT
It wasn't a hospital, it was a clinic. I don't know where you're from but around here clinics are closed at about 5 PM. Listen, I'm all for fighting back if you can do it on equal (or superior) terms. That's why I support being able to carry "protection" at all times. Hand against ANY weapon is not equal. I'm sure she must be a great martial artist and he did not know how to use a knife. So it worked out fine in THIS situation. Your milage may vary. Let' just leave it at that, OK? You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours.
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Post by Reisz on Apr 24, 2009 16:42:54 GMT
And just so we're clear, I understand where you're coming from but I don't agree. If you'd want your wife to acquiesce to a criminal's demands, by all means, counsel her to do so. Me? I already know my wife's not going to go down w/out a fight unless she sees no other option (dark, secluded, he has a gun, no escape route, that sorta thing); God forbid but if anything were to ever happen to the one YOU love, acquiescence won't necessarily save their life or assuage your feelings of impotence (by not being there to save/help her) these days. Well said Sir +1 when I recharge You too James, well put. I used to live in Western Australia, so I have begun to understand now that I am in California, the difference between crime likelihood and and suggested self defense responses in the two countries, now keep in mind I live in San Jose so it is hardly the crime capital of the US but even here it shows. That having been said, I really have to commend this Lady for having trained in her respective martial art and how it May have saved her life, I completely understand the point of view that the likelihood of this particular assailant killing this woman for her car keys is pretty low and as it was said There's a reason that even really hard cases take knives very, very seriously. This however is a factor that could swing both ways; she goes to hand him her keys, he gets a rush of adrenaline for being successful, goes to give her a little nick to push it home and instead in the confusion accidentally strikes too high and cuts her throat........ we would all be having a different conversation right now. your car may not be worth your life... but there are too many factors involved to think that way, is the next however many years of feeling inadequate and subsequent fear of men worth it? what if he had taken her car and hit some kid in the street? I mean this could be extrapolated into the crime of the century but that would become irrelevant. As it stands, she is now a powerful example of how self defense training and the human survival instinct could save your life. Good on you Beth. -Reisz
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2009 16:44:20 GMT
Fair enough.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2009 17:26:38 GMT
Having lived in Australia all my life and knowing a bit about knives I have to say that since she was a black belt in zen do kai, I am surprised all she did was break his wrist. One of my house mates used to do zen do kai and it was an interesting art.
Nurses are a prime target for rapists and murderers, the number of times I've read about what has happened to women, even in broad daylight, is overwhelming. For the most part to kill someone with a knife you have to be very focused and you have to know where to strike, it is amazing how many times a person can be stabbed or cut and still survive.
Hospitals here are different to hospitals in the US, I have seen empty under ground parking lots at hospitals even during the day. An underground parking lot doesn't necessarily have to be empty for a woman to be raped and murdered.
She did what was right. Maybe the wallet or vehicle isn't worth your life but when you acquiesce you lose any power you have and women generally feel powerless enough already. Each time you give into an attacker you give them that bit more power over you. The reason the police suggest people to acquiesce is because they figure that most people have no training and maybe if they don't piss the attacker off the attack won't go any further. Unfortunately that only works in an ideal world and this is not an ideal world, it is a world where good people get hurt every day for some ridiculous reasons, often petty reasons. So when you read a story like this it just makes you feel good that a good person managed not to get badly hurt.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2009 0:48:46 GMT
As it stands, she is now a powerful example of how self defense training and the human survival instinct could save your life. So when you read a story like this it just makes you feel good that a good person managed not to get badly hurt. Granted, in this situation it was the right move. But what I object to is the broad generalisations being made where people are taking the actions of a highly trained martial artist for whom things happened to work out, and extrapolating that into blanket statements that in general fighting back should be the default position. It’s a dangerous mindset that is too prevalent and I’m sure has gotten a lot of people with an excess of machismo killed. To expand on my position – yes, once things have reached a tipping point (e.g. an actual attack, demanding that you go with them somewhere, etc.) then that might be the point to take a stand. But at any point before that, deciding that you’re going to get into a life-threatening situation over your wallet is nothing short of moronic. The reason the police suggest people to acquiesce is because they figure that most people have no training and maybe if they don't piss the attacker off the attack won't go any further. Unfortunately that only works in an ideal world and this is not an ideal world, it is a world where good people get hurt every day for some ridiculous reasons, often petty reasons. Sometimes, that happens. But the fact remains that the vast majority of criminals aren’t interested in hurting people for the hell of it. The threat of violence is a means to an end and is something that is generally only resorted to when deemed necessary – usually when resistance is offered, whether that be failure to comply with demands, or (definitely) attempting to fight. Even those criminals with little to no respect for human life will usually avoid violence if possible, for simple self-interest reasons. You seriously hurt or kill someone, and not only will the police will be all over your ass, you face harsher penalties if you do get caught. The true psychos are the exception rather than the rule. I’m not speaking entirely as a theorist here. While avoiding e-masturbation as much as possible, in my younger and much stupider days I have spent a reasonable amount of time around and in the company of felons. I myself used to <theoretical admittance of the persistant breakage of weapons ownage and carry laws omitted> and it wasn’t until my mid-20s that I finally stopped my hand from instinctively darting to the small of my back every time I was surprised or approached unawares (that raises a few eyebrows in a corporate setting, incidentally). For the most part to kill someone with a knife you have to be very focused and you have to know where to strike, it is amazing how many times a person can be stabbed or cut and still survive. In some cases that is true. In a lot more cases (the ones you don’t hear about) it could equally be said that it’s amazing how little ‘damage’ needs to be done with a knife in order to kill somebody. In the case of cuts what you say is somewhat true, but with any decent sized blade (I’d say 4” or more) there are so many vital organs a stab can puncture it’s not funny. Without knowing what direct experiences you’ve have (practical rather than training/theoretical) I couldn’t say why our views differ so much, but I would argue it requires very little in the way of focus and knowledge of particular vital points in order to kill someone with a knife. In fact, I’d say more often people tend to be taken unawares by how much damage they actually do, as opposed to what they thought they’d do. your car may not be worth your life... but there are too many factors involved to think that way, is the next however many years of feeling inadequate and subsequent fear of men worth it? Maybe the wallet or vehicle isn't worth your life but when you acquiesce you lose any power you have and women generally feel powerless enough already. Each time you give into an attacker you give them that bit more power over you. Let me put it this way. I’m not a psychologist, but before I made another career decision I was training to become one. I’m all about the psychological well-being. But you know what? Only the living get to have psychological issues. I’ve stared down the barrel of a gun before, I’ve had a knife to my throat, and I’m not now (nor did I ever) beat myself up about backing the hell down as opposed to making an issue about it just so I could feel ‘powerful’. Particularly over the insignificant matters that prompted those situations.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2009 1:48:52 GMT
Hello Psychochink +1 For that post, I really enjoyed reading it, I agree with what you are saying. In my opinion, in that case, the nurse was well-served by her training and her reactions. In that situation (the attacker suddenly striking her with his knife, with no warning, after sneaking up on her), I am happy she got out of there with little physical damage (and I am happy that the crook got his day ruined). However, I totally agree that automatically physically fighting back to any kind of agression/criminal act is a very dangerous mindset (and now we enter the very slippery grounds of hypothesises and what if scenarios). From the training I had and my knowledge of the law, fighting back (or just fighting, period) can become dangerous to the ''victim''. The ''victim'' can easily get hurt, or even killed (at least, no psychological issues after that, like you said ). Worse, without some very important precautions (screaming for help, running away, ect), you can easily be the one accused of wrong-doing by the law. If the cops arrive on the scene and see two fighting each other, theres no victim, no agressor, just two people trying to hurt each other and breaking the law. No good guy vs bad guy scenario here. Most criminal will claim self-defense, most judge or lawyer won't see the difference between him and you. I also agree about what you say about the criminal mind. I have a B. Sc. in psychology, I did a few courses in criminology and psychopathologies (including criminal behaviors and criminals personnality traits) is my favorite subject. Most of the time, criminals select their victim, they will strike people they feel they can intimidate/steal from/ect with no risk to themselves. Most criminals don't have pleasure from hurting others (they just don't care at all about others, period), they use others for their personnal benefit. So, a typical criminal will try to intimidate his victim to have his keys/wallet/money/ect and won't go out of his way to hurt that person anymore than is necessary to get the above-mentionned item(s). I am not saying that the victim won't go through mental hardship. I am saying that other elements (drugs, alcohol, beeing taunted/threatend, resistance, ect) must be present to push a typical mugger/thief to physically strike someone. Also, I consider that having my wallet stolen and my pride wounded is a lesser evil than having my guts spilled... When it comes to rappist, murderers, sadists, things are very different. However, these criminals tend to be much rarer that the typical low-life mugger. I would have much more to say about these things but I don't think it would be necessary for now. Feel free to pm me for extra info.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2009 21:35:43 GMT
I'd like to think I'd have done the same. Good for her. Though lucky he did only have a knife... And what the devil is Zen Do Kai? Since your question was never quite answered, "Zen Do Kai is a freestyle martial art system which was developed in Australia by Bob Jones. The style was founded by Jones and Richard Norton when they left the Japanese Gōjū Kai karate dojo of Tino Ceberano." - Wikipedia So this Zen Do Kai is apparently an Aussie Jeet Kun Do or MMA type martial art, no matter, she was trained in a fighting art. Anyway, this whole situation is something that calls for (and I have been harping about this) "critical judgment." No a life, is not worth a wallet or car or cell phone any other piece of modern life. However, modern times have shown that not fighting back can be just as wrong an option as "playing the hero." In the situation in question, I believe this nurse did the right thing her her in the situation. In another situation it may have been the wrong reaction. No of us were there so we cannot judge. Now, I was taught growing up "Don't be a hero" in respect to criminal situations. I have been the victim of muggings in the past and my acquiescence what what saved my hide. However, I have been in other situations where my choice to fight back has been my salvation. This all depends on the specific situation, and there are too many variables (the criminals own body language for one) for any of us to make a sweeping judgment. It depends on the situation what the right response is. As for the lethality of a knife, history has already proven that. Six stitches is not a lethal wound, yet a two inch penetration can be. The lethality of firearms has been proven but at less than 50 feet a firearm is a poor choice of weapon. A blade or open hand has an advantage at that point. That many criminals are trying to wield weapons they do not know how to use is also a moot point. It has already been proven many times. The issue here is that training will defeat a lack of thereof, this is true. I admire this woman for fighting back, end of story.
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Post by Reisz on Apr 28, 2009 22:06:58 GMT
It's absolutely true that Critical Judgement is a huge factor in any situation like this, there are of course some instances where opposing force would not be the right thing to do, but there is no doubt in my mind that she did the right thing in this situation. I applaud her for allowing her training to come into play.
-Reisz
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2009 22:21:37 GMT
She said herself she shouldn't have said what she did. If that hadn't happened, she may not have had to fight.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 0:50:52 GMT
Or she may have had to still. The attackers having a weapon ready meant that the situation could have gotten very serious very quickly no matter what had been said.
Sometimes the solution is to give in, sometimes the solution is to fight tooth and nail. However, it has been my experience that the latter is more common than the former.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 1:05:59 GMT
I wasn't making an argument one way or the other. Just taking her thoughts into consideration. Thinking out loud.
I mean, it doesn't seem she had the chance to get away after letting that slip.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 1:28:22 GMT
"I mean, it doesn't seem she had the chance to get away after letting that slip."
Very true.
I think I may have been doing some of the "thinking out loud" bit myself in my own replies. Anyway, as I said it is my own experience that leads me to the conclusion that in many situations self-defense is a valid option but my experience is exactly that MY experience the sum total of occurrences that have happened to me in my lifetime. The situation of this nurse just dovetailed nicely with them. However, someone else with different life experience would reach a different conclusion.
Not trying to argue either but only voice my own opinion and I respect your view as well.
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