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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2009 16:39:23 GMT
Does anyone here know allot of history about swords used in the Civil War?
I've got an original 1851 Colt Navy revolver that was given to an ancestor during the civil war.
I was wondering would a Sergeant have been issued a sword as well?
How about a Sergeant with the militia?
What type of swords were issued to Infantry Officers?
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Post by hotspur on Apr 8, 2009 18:22:01 GMT
Howdy, I'll try to get some sword pictures up for you at some point but reality about that conflict points to very few swords actually being carried in the field and most true of infantry troops. Consider also that the bulk of lower rank swords were cavalry type swords, as the Federal troops as well as Confederate considered most of the troops as mounted infantry. Of the two straight swords you might consider militia nco swords would be the M1840 patterns of both with counterguards and the "hiltless" knuckle guard musician type. Actually, I'll just point to this catalog, as it is a fair representation of all types. In looking at this page, first disregard pricing but note a variety of the nco and musician swords, as well as some of the gladius type artillery swords. On his officer page and in his museum section, you'll see some examples of militia swords. There were a wide variety of swords carried by militia ncos but a good many would have been of the reeded bone grip and knight pommel type . The biggest variations are of the counterguards themselves. Some look quite like the later fraternal swords, as that is where the type grew from. www.civilwarpreservations.com/catpage.asp?CategoryType=swordsTrying to tie a sword to an individual is the trick. My one true ACW sword is an 1864 Ames example of the 1840nco and I could pair that up with one sergeant from my ancestry. A Lt of my ancestry was a cavalry troop that later was absorbed as mounted infantry, so some day I may find a nice old cavalry sword to suit. On the reproduction side, I did pick up a random infantry officer type to sharpern and play with. Books. for sure are a good buy. A good friend just to the south of me here named Dmitry, has a volume of Peterson's American Swords book, while old, still the bible and filled with trivia about militia and nco troops. Some other neat stuff on his page as well. sailorinsaddle.com/I think he wanted all of $15 for it but is also out there brand new for not a whole bunch more. Dealer sites are really the tip of the iceberg for knowledge and interest but some of the reference pages are quite useful. Too many to link, really. I did just recently link some stuff down the hall here at SBG in the military room. /index.cgi?board=military&action=display&thread=9629&page=1 Cheers Hotspur; the brass hilted pokey thing on the left is my Ames 1840 nco
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2009 19:02:24 GMT
The reason I'm asking is because I was wondering if this sergeant would have carried a sword besides his pistol and if so, I want to buy a reproduction to place into a glass case along with the pistol.
My ancestor was a Union Sergeant if that helps....
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Post by hotspur on Apr 8, 2009 19:52:16 GMT
Well, there are a couple of the 1840 reproductions out there but my feeling is that even the better ones are a bit of a dishonor to put one with an ancestor's actual relics. Places like Joshua's www.joshuasattic.com/search/search.asp?Type1=&category=swordcivilSell buckets of them and a primo example with a scabbard can be had for less than the one Dmitry is selling (talk to him for a bargain or watch his auctions) My 1864 is a prime example, never nicked, never sharpened and likely never carried (that is why clean ones are everywhere). The older militia knight head pommels are also... reasonably priced and bountiful. <$200 with a scabbard if you look around. If your distant relation was active in the militia prior to the war, it could still have been likely that the "proper" choice would be the 1840. The reproductions are everywhere and less than $100. The better grade of them about $125 but if it's just for show and it's not important to be accurate, any at all would probably be just fine. Clean examples and "as new" really don't need to break the bank" Cheers Hotspur; more notes about your ancestor might speak volumes
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2009 20:37:05 GMT
Jacob Cogdill (or Cogdell as some of his military records state) fought in the war of 1812 (Enlisted Oct 26 1813, discharged June 30 1815, under the command of a Captain B. Reynolds) and during the civil war enlisted in the Gentry County Home Guards as a private at the tender age of 67 on August 29 1861. Enlisted and mustered the same day. Remarks "Date of disbanding of this company or time of service not give on muster rolls. Served 21 days". August 9 1862 had him enrolled as a Sergeant in the 31st Regiment Enrolled MO. Militia under a General Loan in Albany. Ordered into active service the same day. He was relieved from this duty on November 24 1862. April 20 1863 he was once again enrolled as a Sergeant with the 31st Regiment Enrolled MO. Militia under a General Hall in Albany. Ordered into active service on July 23 1863. He was relieved from this duty on October 13 of 1863 by a Col. J.F. Williams. Finally in October 29 of 1863 he was enrolled with the 81st Regiment EMM Co. at the age of 69. He was ordered into active service on the same day. He was finally relieved from duty on December 1st of 1863 for being over age. He passed away in 1879. Years after he passed away, his 2nd wife gave the pistol to Jacob's son who was taking a covered wagon "westward" with his family. The pistol was to "keep him safe" so her diary stated. You stated that very few swords were actually carried, so would he have just had this pistol then?
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Post by hotspur on Apr 8, 2009 21:37:42 GMT
Yes, my thoughts exactly, as he was not a young guy and would have surely known that extra stuff often gets left behind.
That is a terrific biography to have and a lot of ground to cover for just about any timeline. More complete than many. He would have reconized most of the swords on that table I posted and was no novice to the tasks of campaign. As a militiaman after the 18teens, he could well have had astraight sword at some point but that the gun remains cleary identified, at most he may have had a carbine, full rifle or shotgun. As a Union volunteer, there were more regular supply but the handgun carried by a sergeant probably pretty rare and owned by someone that knew the value.
My Missouri ancestors are split right along the river and more than a couple swore oaths to the union only to rejoin local rangers. Literally first cousins on either side of some of those battles.
If he had been issued a sword at that juncture, it would have been an 1840 spadroon, as shown.
Cheers
Hotspur;Maybe some other uniform items would be more appropriate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2009 21:53:21 GMT
thanks for all the help!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2009 2:24:14 GMT
Below is a militia NCO sword that used to be in my collection. IMO, completely useless as a weapon, but a nice mark of rank.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2009 15:55:57 GMT
Below is a militia NCO sword that used to be in my collection. IMO, completely useless as a weapon, but a nice mark of rank. I can't say I necessarily agree with your post, my friend- just by looking at those pictures and knowing a little something about the style of dress and lack of armor in that day, that little slim profiled blade would've been hell in a trench or any other situation that called for sharp steel in-hand. With such a thin blade and sharp point to begin with, it just calls for the thrust to be employed and, I imagine, to some effect. Of course, it probably wasn't much of a cutter seeing as it would probably not have much in the way of blade presence, but for stabbing? It looks the part. That particular profile has been used primarily from a ceremonial standpoint (Knights of Columbus, Masonic Order to name a couple) but with a point like that, I figure it had to be able to do something.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2009 17:30:47 GMT
When compared to other swords of the period that were intended for actual use, this sword seems pretty useless. It could have been used, but it is less than ideal when considering other weapons of the period (and that swords did not see much use during the ACW). IMO, the M1840 NCO sword would be preferable over the militia NCO sword if there was need for a serviceable sword. There is a good discussion of the M1840 NCO sword at either SFI or myArmoury, but I cannot seem to find it. I will post a link if I find it. ADDED: I think this is the one: www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93758This thread might also be useful: www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=15718&highlight=nco
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Post by hotspur on Apr 9, 2009 18:21:06 GMT
It is really important to understand sword development and use during the 19th century. First, blade crossection of the straight stabby things with knight helmets does vary quite a bit but most of all realize that improvements of repeating arms does bear out the precepts offered earlier in this thread.
The prewar militia swords were somewhat srurdier but of little significant use other than rank and signaling. This is not a new trend either and truly goes back most of a while century before the American Civil War. One could easily recognize that even spontoons were falling out of use on the continental Europeans, although spontoons were regulation sergeant items in the U.S. for some decades to come. Add a simple straight sword to the assembly of kit.
It is true that even a fencer's foil could easily be deadly, the actual use in CQB throughout the 19th century shows little use of bladed arms, including bayonets. Naval use was more likely to have occured but still not a serious advantage compared to tactical artillery. Even with the proliferation of bayonets, casulty statistics will bear out the facts that many more died of artillery and sickness than any edged weapon use. It is not to say never, just less than romanticized.
Anyway, I have to run for an appointment. More later mebbe.
Cheers
Hotspur; not to confuse spontoon and spadroon but every collection needs at least one of each
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Post by hotspur on Apr 9, 2009 18:22:47 GMT
oh yes meant to say J hop's example is well post ACW
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2009 19:10:10 GMT
oh yes meant to say J hop's example is well post ACW But similar to... ...I think...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2009 19:13:21 GMT
ask a simple question get a complex answer!
Man I love this message board! ;D
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Post by hotspur on Apr 11, 2009 5:37:37 GMT
ask a simple question get a complex answer! Man I love this message board! ;D It seems like a pretty small world after all. For a complex answer from your inquiries, was the family in Virginia during the late 17th century? Another family moving to Missouri via Kentucky,Tennesee and very much following the foot paths of Boone. I have some other files to browse but it looks like several families were a pretty close pack in migration. It was actually the Kilgore family that made me look further at Cogdill ancestry. Cheers Hotspur; it was really old maps of highways and paths that tied up some loose ends of my quests
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 5:42:16 GMT
ask a simple question get a complex answer! Man I love this message board! ;D It seems like a pretty small world after all. For a complex answer from your inquiries, was the family in Virginia during the late 17th century? Another family moving to Missouri via Kentucky,Tennesee and very much following the foot paths of Boone. I have some other files to browse but it looks like several families were a pretty close pack in migration. It was actually the Kilgore family that made me look further at Cogdill ancestry. Cheers Hotspur; it was really old maps of highways and paths that tied up some loose ends of my questsI'll talk to my grandma since she handles the genealogy
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 5:45:41 GMT
Try Arms 2 Armor.com they have a section covering american swords.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2009 16:38:49 GMT
Hotspur, those are some really nice pictures.
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Post by hotspur on Apr 13, 2009 4:15:15 GMT
Hi Bill, it is a growing and evolving family. Long before I sarted assembling a range of reproduction medieval types, I had been very drawn to antiques. I am still on a mission for a mid 19th century sabre but I have a long list of them to choose from. For around the $600 mark, there are complete and unmolested/clean examples of the cavalry French mle1822, or its later equivilant in a model 1840 "heavy" destined for the American market, or indeed an Ames version of the same sword from the 1840s. With that, I will have pretty much assembled the priorities I had set a decade ago. I feel prey to more reproductions and even last week bought a cutlass from Grendel's. At the same time, I have now commited to another antique I should have in hand this week. I just can't fathom sinking big bucks on the prime American made swords right now. I hope to be able to work part of that reproduction collection into, say an Albion or another A&A. Not lost in context is a beautiful rapier and dagger from a forumite listing at SFI and myArmoury for an Erik Stevenson. It has been for sale over the past year and have nearly gone into hock for it. Instead, I have picked up some relative bargains in antiques, some right at this forum's $300 mark. one truth about the antiques is they continue to rise on the street prices and it is eventually a narrowing market to find real bargains at any price point. So anyway, on the list is a sabre from my ancestors history and a still growing passion for spadroons and every eagle head pommel I encounter. The incoming is not another eagle head but I had been eyeing a couple of more in the low four figure market, about what a good Albion would run. Todays bid would not have lasted forever and I just couldn't deny that it should follow me home. I have just seen too many that speak to me and get lost in the market forever. There were three other swords I had been seriously considering and another of those sold recently. The two remaining will probably surface again in one form/maker or another but this one is not common and quite complete with a scabbrd as well. Cheers Hotspur; too much money out this month but it's money well spent for investment and even some for fun
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