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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2009 17:47:20 GMT
Well said Miekka. I believe that you made some very valid points. I've always been of the opinion that what someone does with their own property is their business.... NOT mine. As long as they aren't harming another person.... You're not alone in that opinion, ... wise words to consider !
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 31, 2009 1:15:09 GMT
I disagree. Just because WE ARE RICH, we still have a responsibility to those at the bottom of the pyramid. And yes, if you have a computer, net access, and electricity to plug it into, you ARE richer than 90% of the world's population. And the bottom of that pyramid consists of the 5 billion people poorer than us, the Earth, the Animals, and the Plants.
BTW Part of my life's mission is to give voice and protection to the worlds animals who are under our care, but have no voice of their own, and who are squandered and suffer under human rule. But there are people who are treated like that to due to the greed of the rich western society. Alvin, do you think that just because you OWN an animal you can do what you want to it? Or just because you OWN a vehicle you have no responsibility to the world to control your emissions etc. No, ownership of anything carries a responsibility, and it is the business of anyone who shares this planet what you do with what you "own". Ownership is an illusion anyway. It's not real.
If some wealthy type bought a Fable Blade and butchered it thus, I would be heartbroken. And if they offered me double the asking price so that they could purchase it to destroy it thus, I would NOT sell it to them. Just ask the forum member that I recently knocked back for a commission. I don't sell my work out if I disagree with it's intended use.
Again, I wonder what the poor foundry worker who is proud of his work and his ability to honestly feed his family thinks of this butchery. He probably thought his baby would travel across the world to be honored as the art that it is.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Mar 31, 2009 1:24:47 GMT
I disagree. Just because WE ARE RICH, we still have a responsibility to those at the bottom of the pyramid. Brenno, I have great respect for you and your work, and with that in mind I repectfully disagree with this statement. I am by no means rich, but the only thing I feel I am responsible for is myself......maybe if more people took a lttle more responsiblity for themselves and their actions, we would have a little less poor in the world.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 31, 2009 1:31:40 GMT
I disagree. Just because WE ARE RICH, we still have a responsibility to those at the bottom of the pyramid. Brenno, I have great respect for you and your work, and with that in mind I repectfully disagree with this statement. I am by no means rich, but the only thing I feel I am responsible for is myself......maybe if more people took a lttle more responsiblity for themselves and their actions, we would have a little less poor in the world. Avery I think we are really agreeing here. We are responisble for our own actions. Like turning off the lights when we aren't in the room. Yes, if we were all more conscious of what we do the world would be better, and there would be less poor - our footprint would be reduced. It has to start with our self. We can't wait for others, we have to be the ones to change our behaviour. In that way we are being responsible to mother earth. And one thing I am frustrated with is everyone on this forum forever saying how they dont have money and are broke. I'm no bill gates either. But I have a roof over my head, food in my belly, and warm running water. So I am rich. Richer than 90% of the worlds population. Rich rich rich! Heck, I even have a CAR! I'm loaded. Like I mentioned live life for a day in the shoes of the kid who made the shoes you are wearing, then come back and say you aren't rich.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 31, 2009 1:34:08 GMT
I can apreciate both sides of this arguement and I'm really not going to take a side, but I would like to make this point: I often wish Paul wouldn't chop steel drums and poles and firewood and such things. inevitably someone tries to reproduce his amazing cuts and because they lack the same level of awesomeness they damage or destroy their swords and feel bad about it. it is great to see what these swords can stand up to but I wish there was a way to get the "Don't try this at home" message across that would actualy be listened to. . .
anyway Miekka, I hope you learned some valuable information from this and that is not me being snide as I presume you did this test to learn something about your swords. maybe you didn't learn what you expected maybe you learned that and more. in the end if you gained knowledge you gained something.
it's still a damn shame to see such a nice sword hurt that way. I think if I had made it I might be upset, but it is your sword. I'm just glad you didn't get hurt, and no, I don't think your safety measures were enough. maybe I'm a worry-wort.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Mar 31, 2009 1:34:15 GMT
Brenno, I have great respect for you and your work, and with that in mind I repectfully disagree with this statement. I am by no means rich, but the only thing I feel I am responsible for is myself......maybe if more people took a lttle more responsiblity for themselves and their actions, we would have a little less poor in the world. Avery I think we are really agreeing here. We are responisble for our own actions. Like turning off the lights when we aren't in the room. Yes, if we were all more conscious of what we do the world would be better, and there would be less poor - our footprint would be reduced. It has to start with our self. We can't wait for others, we have to be the ones to change our behaviour. In that way we are being responsible to mother earth. Well said..... and agreed.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 31, 2009 1:41:30 GMT
Wow....
......
All this talk about animals makes me want a hamburger....
Seriously, I'm all for responsibility and husbandry... but I disagree with the number 90 % for one... would LOVE to see some hard data on that....
I really don't believe the factory worker that produced that sword had any romantic visions about its destiny..... He probably was just trying to make a day, like evry other working slob in the world....
Least he has a job... I haven't had one since the end of 2007....
I'd love to get paid to make swords for people to destroy....
Animals... well theres no reason to be unnecessarily cruel to them... but I'm a carnivore.. I eat them.... I'm not a hypocrite though... if I step into a food chain with another predator atop it I'm not going to take it personally if I get eaten....I won't like it , obviously... but hey... cycle of life....
Really, Brenno, I'm not trying to be harsh at all, and I respect you... but DAMN.... all this rhetoric over a dinged up sword?
Everybody has their beliefs, thats fine.. everyone is entitleed to their beliefs... you , me .. all of us....
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 31, 2009 1:51:46 GMT
Marc, why don't you start making swords? It's not as hard as all that, but it does take a lot of time to make one, and sweat. Employ yourself. Be an entrepreneur. Hey, I've been unemployed for 12 months too.
It may just be one dinged up sword to you, but to all the 15 year old kids who can't afford a first functional sword, reading these forums. It's shattering. They would have gladly given a loving, oily home to that blade. I remember when I was 15 watching people smash up electric guitars, and all I wanted was an electric guitar. It was shattering.
Step out of your own shoes for a sec. You may be at peace with a shark or a gator eating you, but does the shark keep you in a dark, crowded filthy cage from birth, pumping you full of hormones, cutting off your feet and beak so you don't rip at yourself and the other hundred like you stuffed into that tiny cage? No, shark just comes and goes. People are the only horror on this planet.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 31, 2009 2:05:06 GMT
I don't know about that ... but I come from a family that has raised livestock for consumption for at least the last hundred years... and all I've ever seen is well cared for cows and pigs and a smattering of chickens... all well cared for so they fetch a nice price when they go to the market...
Now I'm sure that there are industrial operations that are not quite as kind with their treatment of animals... and thats unfortunate... its not going to cause me to be self loathing, or to hate my species though...
Life is just what it is ... the world is a savage place, and if we mistreat it bad enough, long enough , it will shrug us off of it and begin again...
That said, I've seen MANY swords tested to destruction... I have one under my bed right now that was tested to destruction by myself...
I can appreciate that someone else would appreciate that sword.. but going by the personal responsibility doctrine we are talking about, its their responsibility to provide their own... right?
Not trying to be argumentative, but this all seems WAY over the top to me....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 2:10:51 GMT
I think some excellent points have been brought up by many people here. Brenno: I certainly share your feelings about the respect we show our weapons. I feel our weapons deserve respect, and that unless that respect is shown, your weapon will never serve you properly. But that's a little too out there for some. Some would say, that it is my weapon, so its my choice what i do with it. Which is also very true... And it would sadden me to tears also to know that a sword i had poured sweat into to make was being used like it was a piece of scrap metal. But in the end,... the person who made it is getting paid for that service. Its not like they volunteered to make a sword, and then someone destroyed it... But at the same time, it could be considered a tribute to the sword maker to see that blade stand up to such incredible abuse, and still remain generally sound. I mean, look at all the stuff Paul S. has destructive tested... I know whenever i watched one of those swords being put through its paces, never were my thoughts "oh, that poor sword makers work"... But rather, "Wow, what a sword that is!"For the record here, i am not agreeing, or disagreeing with anyone. I think many good points have been mentioned, and hope this stays friendly is all... ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 23:47:02 GMT
Just ask the forum member that I recently knocked back for a commission. I don't sell my work out if I disagree with it's intended use. Brenno, I have nothing but respect for you, and our off list communications are private, but let me share this. I recently asked Brenno, to give me a quote on what it would take to make a custom hunting knife, complete with gut-hook and fisherman's bait cutter (the sketch can be found in the member designs section). However, because of his beliefs about animals Brenno refused me - I actually have to respect a man for holding his beliefs so dear. So, no fable blade for your's truly, oh friggen well. Anyway, in much of this argument I have to agree with Brenno. Ownership does not imply that a person can do whatever they want with something, instead it implies (in my opinion) a type of stewardship - an unspoken agreement to become the caretaker of an item. Yes, I've seen all the reviews of Paul S testing things to destruction, and I have wept over the deaths of those blades, but with those torture tests- I can see a point. Those tests can save the rest of us from making some serious mistakes in wasting money that could have been better spent elsewhere. However, the Gen 2 Celtic sword has already been thoroughly reviewed and tested - that particular katana has been thoroughly reviewed and tested and as for the SWI machete all any person has to do is pull up any Consumer Reports listing on them to find out Ontario and ColdSteel are the top two brands of machete with excellent quality reputations. Therefore, this entire test was unnecessary and gratuitous. That is why people are so upset. If this test had been done with unproven blades I, for one, would not have a problem with it. Yet, this was done with well proven blades for no greater apparent purpose than to relieve boredom - well, that is the problem.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 1, 2009 0:12:31 GMT
No test of one or even a few of an item is thorugh or definitive. Especially in swords , where the forging and heat treating of each one makes each unique, or close to it... Extensive testing of many of the same model can give a representative idea of the model, but quality may vary piece by piece... as such, the more tests we have of a particular model, the clearer picture we get. Its the scientific method, kinda.... As to your Idea of Stewardship, I agree about antiques, artwork or such, but for mass produced consumer goods the idea is a bit ludicrous. I might be a steward to a 64 Shelby, but an 84 Escort ain't good for nothing but taking me to work... Anyway , thats my take... now I'm going to go caretake this cup of coffee and bagel I just purchased.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Apr 1, 2009 4:05:04 GMT
As to your Idea of Stewardship, I agree about antiques, artwork or such, but for mass produced consumer goods the idea is a bit ludicrous. I might be a steward to a 64 Shelby, but an 84 Escort ain't good for nothing but taking me to work... Anyway , thats my take... now I'm going to go caretake this cup of coffee and bagel I just purchased. Definitely some grey area. Without proper care and servicing your 84 Escort will burn oil and pollute this fine planet. And when it sparks it's last spark, do you dump it in the bush or do you recycle it for scrap? If you throw your new bagel in the bin it is a waste of food; and surely all of our mums drilled into us how there are millions of starving kids in the world that would love to have that fine brusselsprout we didn't want to finish when we were little. So there is a duty of care to respect your wards, no matter how little we percieve them in our rich overstuffed lives. And as for mass produced things. The production of any article emits greenhouse gasses and burns energy, and drains our planet, so again we have a responsibilty. [that 1 Bagel takes water to grow the wheat, fuel burned in harvesting and transport, electricity in cooking, human effort to prepare, it's endless..] We have a restaurant in Perth where the food is free, made with love by volunteering mothers. You pay by donation only, with the one request that you please take only what you need and don't return your plate with any food left. And you know what? Not a single scrap of food is ever returned wasted. Something this modern world could learn from. What I'm saying (and LPBoyle is trying to say i believe) is ownership is a modern concept, and not real. We are just a part of this planet, we don't own it or anything in it. Thats why native americans were swindled out of their land so cheap. They thought it was funny when white men came to "purchase" their land from them. How can you "own" the land they thought, we are part of the land. When you don't own something, greed is eliminated, the ego doesn't try to enlarge it's self by taking more and more into it, more than it needs. Trying to build it's self a separate identity, to be distinguish it's 'self' from the world around it. But the reality of the universe is that the 'self' or the 'ego' is the illusion. We are all one, inseperable. Once the ego dies this planet will start to heal.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 5:17:19 GMT
Guys, I agree with pretty much all of you, because you all have valid points that all work on different levels. BUT we are not here to discuss things like this, are we? We are here to discuss swords, and discussions like this seems to be the cause of problems lately. I've been away for nearly a year and just read through all the problem threads this week. I'm saddened. I think we should just stick to swords and leave everything that is this unrelated to PM or maybe the cafe. If we must discuss opinions so personal, we ought to state them and leave it at that; no trying to convince others to think like you, because it will in all likelihood just not happen. Please review my first sentence and not fire at me. I like all you guys.
As for the OP, testing is good and all, but edge to edge contact is just not what any of these blades were made for, so these results do not exemplify any "built-in" or "by-design" characteristics. It is good to know that they can take the edge to edge contact, though, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 6:26:34 GMT
I do kinda have to agree with brenno...but I do see nothing wrong with doing a destructive test as long as one knows to do it safe and in a manner that will give maxium results and finding for the poor blades that are to be abused.
Here is my issue though, the OP's test was a waste. It proved nothing of value other then a machete with more steel is better at taking abuse then a sword. We ALL know this already. The OP also showed a rather large lack of knoweldge of what swords are. You can not do a safe destruction test without that knoweldge. Yes I know he took precaustions...mainly because of a fairly smart older brother, but a failed blade can do WAY more damage then a first aid kit can handle very easily. And finally is the OP's thinking of well Paul does it so it must be okay. NO it is not. This is why I get so upset when I see people do unsafe things and post videos of it. Paul even has a disclaimer saying how unsafe it is. It is not something everymember of this forum should be doing. In fact there are a VERY few people who I would consider knoweldgeable enough to run such a test safely.
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Post by kidcasanova on Apr 1, 2009 6:36:48 GMT
Brendan, I disagree with some of what you're saying. Not all of it, but mostly your idea of ownership. What would you say if a man took your home away? If the government suddenly rezoned the land you live on, or instituted a law that made your craft illegal, and melted down all of your blades? Could you call foul and claim ownership?
While I do not believe we have the right to spoil the earth (because it affects other people, not just an individual). The things an individual purchases are theirs to do whatever they wish to. In reality, we live in a glorified bartering system. We put in OUR hard work and OUR sweat and blood to make a living, what we choose to buy is up to us. Just as the man who put in his sweat and blood to trade that sword for some of our money. We are effectively supporting those workers. Who cares if we destroy the blades? Then we'll just go buy more. We are putting food on that family's table, and it's pretty (I wish there was a softer word, I do not mean this as harsh as it implies) ignorant to assume that we are hurting the people who make these pieces. If anyone knows of a less "charged" word than ignorant, please let me know and I'll edit it.
I won my bed. I can sleep on it, which will benefit me. Or I can give it away, which will benefit others, and perhaps will bnefit me if that is how I get my jollies. Or I can smash it, which benefits no one, but it only hurts me. Either way, it's my choice to do as I please with something that I worked hard to purchase. Not all of those choices will be responsible or smart, but none of those choices hurt other people. And everything in my mattress is bio-degradable. It's just cotton, wood and metal. It came from the earth, shouldn't be a problem putting it back in.
I respect people who refuse to eat meat. I may not agree with it, but it's good to stand for something. I don't eat a whole lot of store-bought meat. I agree with you that the conditions of animals in most industrial companies is, well, horrible. Nearly all of the meat I eat is harvested by me, my father, or my brother. With the exception of poultry, as we don't bird-hunt. We substitute all of our beef with venison, and we supply all of our own fish. None of these animals were killed out of malice, or out of pure sport. We dont waste any of the meat. Hell, we even cut out the cheek meat on large snapper and grouper. The hides of the deer get sent to a leather processor to get sold, the guts/bones from the fish get fed to other fish, not wasted. Every death is quick, usually dying instantly, if not them within a few minutes. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with killing an animal, as long as it is not done cruelly or out of sport.
I own snakes, and I feed them live mice. Snakes are efficient predators, killing the mice rather quickly. They dont suffer a prolonged death. However, I have seen owners of reptiles who take delight in the deaths of the mice. They give responsible reptile owners a bad name. People are no different. We are efficient predators, with the ability to kill quickly. However, much like mad reptile owners, there are bad hunters, and they give responsible people a bad name.
There are bad vegans as well, those who harm others to "prove" a point. Pointing fingers at any one group is irresponsible. Pointing fingers are irresponsible people/tendencies in general is the only way to truly move forward (whether in food preference, ownership, civil rights, etc).
And I dont see the OP's actions as irresponsible. Perhaps a bit naive, but he didn't do anything to harm another person, or himself. So i can't fault the guy and I was very interested in his opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 9:14:18 GMT
As to your Idea of Stewardship, I agree about antiques, artwork or such, but for mass produced consumer goods the idea is a bit ludicrous.... Definitely some grey area.... What I'm saying (and LPBoyle is trying to say i believe) is ownership is a modern concept, and not real. We are just a part of this planet, we don't own it or anything in it.... That is what I was trying to say without getting overly philosophical. I'm a neo-pagan who studies Oriental philosophy I could make this into a three day speech if i wasn't careful, but such musings are better suited to my livejournal blog than the SBG forum. I personally, think the edge to edge testing was needless and gratuitous, and I wouldn't do it myself, but I wasn't the one who did it. So, OP sorry for shooting my mouth off - you have your own way of doing things I have mine. I disagree with you about your choice of actions, but you have your own life and will do what you will. Let's just get back to reviewing some swords which is the whole point of this place to begin with. Anyway, I'm still wondering if anybody has a review of Hanwei's new yang cavalry saber that I saw in their 2009 catalog.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 1, 2009 13:50:14 GMT
Definitely some grey area.... What I'm saying (and LPBoyle is trying to say i believe) is ownership is a modern concept, and not real. We are just a part of this planet, we don't own it or anything in it.... I'm a neo-pagan Well , you are right... we ARE part of the planet , and own nothing on it.. by the same token we cannot destroy anything either... matter nor energy can be destroyed... just transformed.... If we bang up a sword we haven't destroyed one molecule of iron, or carbon... in the same respect I hear people rave about wasting water... huh? Except for the water taken on the space missions, every molecule of water that has ever existed on Earth still does.... A neo-pagan huh? So you definitely support his right to do as he pleases correct? You are of course familiar with the Rede? An it harm none, do what ye will. And the earlier version of course, from Mr. Crowley himself.... Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 14:32:51 GMT
Not weighing in on this just thought I'd point out to Marc, with utmost respect, I believe that water can be "destroyed". I am, in no way, a chemist, in fact I barely passed Chemistry in High School , but I am pretty sure water can be broken down into hydrogen and oxygen (no idea what the process is called) thus "destroying" the water. True, these base elements still exist but the water itself is gone. Just thought I'd be a pain in the butt and point that out ;D
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 1, 2009 14:50:47 GMT
OK .. I'll admit I was talking in generalities, and what I said about water loss was basically flawed.....
To be honest I was repeating something I heard somewhere... a very basic distillization of the Earth's closed system.... the hydrolic cycle...
Obviously water can be ionized....
The concept that matter cannot be destroyed remains the same...
As far as my statement that all the water on Earth is still here... obviously I was talkng out of my ass....
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