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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 3:14:07 GMT
Today when I had alittle spare time off of work, so I decided to do some steel to steel testing with my Generation 2 Celtic sword and my "S.W.I." Machete made by the Ontario Knife Company in the 1970s versus the stainless steel Practice Katana as made famous by the guy who managed to stab himself with it by banging it against the table. I first started by cutting edge to edge with the machete and stainless steel katana. As you will see by the pics coming up, the machete bit deeply into the katana's edge repeatedly until finally a small chip came out of the machete's edge. Aside from the small chip, only very small nicks showed on the blade that were fixed with a single pass of my handy sharpener. I then moved on to testing the Generation 2 Celtic against the katana edge to edge. Here is where I became disappointed. Almost blow for blow, the katana bit into the Celtic sword, although admittedly the bites into the Celtic sword were not as bad as the ones into the katana. This doesn't excuse the Celtic sword though, especially since it is supposed to be made of high carbon steel and tougher than stainless steel. Also, where the Celtic's edge wasn't bitten into, the edge rolled alittle. Overall, if I didn't know the sword was Generation 2, I would have thought the swords were made out of the same steel (aka stainless steel), especially since the machete, which is over 30 years older than the Celtic sword, $155 less, and less effective heat treatment, sustained less damage than the Celtic sword. Very disappointed with the Generation 2 Celtic sword, but impressed with the S.W.I. machete. Here are pictures of the results: The Machete The Generation 2 Celtic The stainless steel Practice Katana (towards the hilt) The stainless steel Practice Katana (towards the tip)
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 29, 2009 3:33:34 GMT
Ugh... Well, the results don't surprise me. Swords are not meant to shop into metal... even stainless steel is a HARD substance... and going edge to edge into it your going to do some damage to the sword. A machete is designed for heavy chopping of bush... tree limbs... tough work. It's going to be thicker, heavier... and good for chopping. The sword is lighter, the edge thinner... it's meant for cutting flesh and leather... I wish you had just sold me your Gen 2 Celtic before you decided to bang it edge to edge against the stainless steel katana... what a waste of a good sword.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 3:46:12 GMT
Why would you do this with a perfectly good and useable sword? I mean what did it ultimately prove? As howler said the celtic is not designed to do the same work the machete is, I am not surprised by the result. I think we could label this one sword abuse.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 29, 2009 3:46:29 GMT
well it looks like you managed to destroy three other wise fine blades. I'm all for testing but don't you think you went a bit too far? I mean if this was the sort of stainless katana that snapped on TV what was to stop it from breaking on the edge to edge hit and hurting you the same way? I hope you took some safety precautions.
I have no experience with any of these swords but I know that they are not made to be used this way.
there was a thread a while back talking about how swords from history often had really low carbon content. in a lot of ways our new modern steel is way better than what they had back in the day.
I don't know what to tell you other than fix your Gen2 and keep using it in a way that won't destroy it.
when we say stainless is bad for swords we don't mean it is soft and spongey. as I understand it the problem is it is brittle and fails under cyclicle stress or something like that. there are people here who explain it better but the point is that stainles can be quite hard but there's a lot more to a good sword than merely hardness.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 3:48:03 GMT
If you thought that I was under the assumption that swords blades are invincible, I apologize. I am aware that sword edges can be damaged with blade on blade contact, but what I was disappointed about wasn't that the blades were damaged, but rather that the Celtic sword took nearly as much damage as the stainless steel katana. It made me worry just how well the blade was forged if it was only a tiny bit better than stainless steel that wasn't tempered like the high carbon blade is supposed to be...I wouldn't say it was a waste of a sword. It didn't break and the nicks can be reduced to a minuscule size or removed completely given alittle work with a whetstone and $10 sharpener. As someone once said on the site: an unused sword is a wall decoration.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 29, 2009 3:51:59 GMT
well I didn't think you expected it to be indestructible, but as I said, there's a lot more to a sword than hardness. a thinner edge that is harder will fold or ding to a softer steel edge that is thicker. the test you did, did not really show you anything about the hardness of the Gen2. it is still most likely a fine sword that has been heat treated well.
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 29, 2009 3:57:35 GMT
Tempering is not about hardness... it's to create flexability in the blade so it wont bend and STAY bent everytime you swing it. I bet the Stainless steel katana you where whacking was WAY harder then the Gen 2 Celtic... but that did NOT make it a better sword. It would have been a brittle, inflexable hunk of sharp metal, good for ONE solid swing before it broke off in the person you cut down with it, and then it would be done. The Gen 2, if used on SOFT targets, as a sword is ment to be used... like FLESH... would have cut many, many times and not bent or broken. You would have had to freshen up the edge now and then, but the SWORD would have served you well. This destruction of the sword makes me sad...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 4:08:43 GMT
I don't think the capitalizing on words was needed, shadowhowler. I believe I am quite capable of reading and noting the message in your post without them. To type them as such comes across to the reader as....condescending.
I think there is a bit of an exaggeration of using "destruction" and "destroyed". I personally do not qualify a sword as being destroyed if it has one or two nicks in it that are fixable. That is only my opinion though...
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 29, 2009 4:16:25 GMT
I don't think the capitalizing on words was needed, shadowhowler. I believe I am quite capable of reading and noting the message in your post without them. To type them as such comes across to the reader as....condescending. I think there is a bit of an exaggeration of using "destruction" and "destroyed". I personally do not qualify a sword as being destroyed if it has one or two nicks in it that are fixable. That is only my opinion though... Hey man, I'm sorry if you feel that way... such is not my intent. If ya go back and read threw a history of my messages, you'll see I use caps for emphasis a LOT... sometimes I even use BOLD caps... It's just part of my 'writing style'... a way I create a "voice" in a text based format. Much like me ever present and recently commented upon use of the "..." in my posts. Anyway, if you got the impression I was being condescending or a Tool... I apologize. NOT my intention, I assure you. Damn iNtErWeBz
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 4:26:18 GMT
No hard feelings, shadowhowler. Thank you and Tom regarding the information regarding edge hardness and tempering (for flexibility and such). This was probably my first and last experiment on testing weapons against each other with the only real reason I did it was the relative cheapness of the three weapons ($20, $20, and $175). After this, I plan on hanging up the Celtic for good once I shape to blade back up. The machete though I plan to continue using for chores and such though since they are dime-a-dozen just about at semprini's Sporting Goods (haha).
For the sire who was concerned and mentioned safety, I had my brother, a police officer, standing by in the house's basement watching at a window about 50 feet away. He insisted on having a first aid with him too. I wore a sabre fencing mask as well as three layers including an undershirt, long sleeve shirt, and heavy jacket with leather gloves, boots, etc (my brother insisted on all of this).
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 29, 2009 5:55:09 GMT
For the sire who was concerned and mentioned safety, I had my brother, a police officer, standing by in the house's basement watching at a window about 50 feet away. He insisted on having a first aid with him too. I wore a sabre fencing mask as well as three layers including an undershirt, long sleeve shirt, and heavy jacket with leather gloves, boots, etc (my brother insisted on all of this). Sounds like you were very safe... For 20 bucks, I'm impressed with the machete... it took minimal damage from edge on edge contact with hard metal... at 20 bucks, thats damn impressive.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 14:09:12 GMT
I think a lot of what I was going to say last night has been said. I will add this though; it shows why one should parry with the flat and not the edge of the blade
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 14:13:50 GMT
I think a lot of what I was going to say last night has been said. I will add this though; it shows why one should parry with the flat and not the edge of the blade
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2009 3:59:08 GMT
Sounds like you were very safe... For 20 bucks, I'm impressed with the machete... it took minimal damage from edge on edge contact with hard metal... at 20 bucks, thats damn impressive. Indeed. Like you mentioned, machetes are designed for tough, backwoods use. I think the reason for it being so cheap was the tip was chipped off when I bought it at a flea market and it's 30 years old.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Mar 30, 2009 9:25:14 GMT
This is sad. The G2 may have been 'cheap', but I have the G2 Celtic Anthro and it is a GOOD sword, and your test doesn't disprove that at all. Clearly you don't know what makes a good sword. It is completely stuffed now. You won't be able to achieve a good edge geometry without major stock removal now, which you likely may not know how to do right.
The sad part is some poor fellows that handmade that sword (I think the forge is in the Philipines) put their heart into it, and produced a quality sword that they can be proud of, and that puts some food in their kids stomachs. It may be cheap to us but to them it's their livelyhood, and their craft. These are totally handcrafted swords, so they did put their sweat and care into it.
Just coz you live in a rich country you should still appreciate where your goods come from. Would you like to work in a sneaker factory for just one 20 hour shift? Just coz your sneakers, shirt, etc. only cost you $20 doesn't mean you should disrespect them. Do you know how many poor bastards are working under conditions we'd call slavery to make most everything you can see in the room around you? It's a lame society this western one that treads so heavily on the Earth. Poluting, wasting, killing; causing mass suffering for the gratification of the ego. It's not you Miekka, it's the modern Western lifestyle I take issue with.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2009 13:13:10 GMT
Ouch Brenno, but I see your point.
Anyway, being a huge fan of the machete - Ontario is an excellent manufacturer known for high quality standards with their main competitor being Cold Steel. I will swear for the quality of both those products until my dying day, and will hold them up to most commercially available SLO's as the better choice. Especially given that with a bit of looking you can purchase both for less than $20 US brand new. (OP an Ontario machete for $20 at a flea market was a rip they run 17.99 at Knife Co, or 19.95 at your local Tractor Supply (the chain) store.) However, testing anything edge to edge is a mistake. Stainless or carbon, steel is still steel and there will be damage. While I don't own a GEN 2 I've heard nothing but good about them and would have to consider this sword abuse. Despite the machete's holding up better I have to call that blade abuse also.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2009 13:42:49 GMT
I have to agree with what Bren said, all of it really he makes a good point and a good reminder to us all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2009 17:17:06 GMT
This is sad. The G2 may have been 'cheap', but I have the G2 Celtic Anthro and it is a GOOD sword, and your test doesn't disprove that at all. Clearly you don't know what makes a good sword. It is completely stuffed now. You won't be able to achieve a good edge geometry without major stock removal now, which you likely may not know how to do right. The sad part is some poor fellows that handmade that sword (I think the forge is in the Philipines) put their heart into it, and produced a quality sword that they can be proud of, and that puts some food in their kids stomachs. It may be cheap to us but to them it's their livelyhood, and their craft. These are totally handcrafted swords, so they did put their sweat and care into it. Just coz you live in a rich country you should still appreciate where your goods come from. Would you like to work in a sneaker factory for just one 20 hour shift? Just coz your sneakers, shirt, etc. only cost you $20 doesn't mean you should disrespect them. Do you know how many poor bastards are working under conditions we'd call slavery to make most everything you can see in the room around you? It's a lame society this western one that treads so heavily on the Earth. Poluting, wasting, killing; causing mass suffering for the gratification of the ego. It's not you Miekka, it's the modern Western lifestyle I take issue with. You misunderstood the meaning of the word "cheapness" when I used it. When it was used, it was with comparison to the cost of higher end swords that cost nearly $1000, more than I make in a month, sometimes 2 months, working full time. I normally do not give out personal information over the internet, but I am dismayed you presume to think I do not appreciate anything I have because of one singular incident you happen to not like. My father and mother both grew up out of lower class families where my father had to work three jobs as a carpenter, hospital security, and jail guard just so we could live in a tiny apartment over my great grandmother's house. My father actually collapsed on the stairs one night and nearly had a heart attack from it all because my family has a heart condition history. It wasn't until I was about 12 when my great grandmother passed away with the house being sold did we have to find a place to live. My father had to sell practically everything he owned so he, my brother, grandfather, and I could build the beautiful house in the background of those pictures with our bare hands. And we still after all this time are still fighting to stay in the lower middle class now that I can finally work to help. And the horrible truth is like you mentioned there are people even worse off still. So when people such as you say I do not appreciate that which I have, I take some offense to it when I grew up knowing and seeing before my eyes darn well what my family goes through, and still goes through. Even then my father, who is nearing 50 and still working multiple jobs, still tells us to mind ourselves when we become frustrated because there are those less fortunate than us. Just because we live in the West doesn't make us automatically rich with lots of nice things or mean that we look down on others less fortunate. I find troubling is Mr. Southern and reviewers, who have had their reviews posted on the main site, have performed tests even more extreme than this on /multiple/ swords such as hitting metal drums and cinder blocks yet I have never seen anyone make such comments about it such as that concerning how "unappreciative" he behaves towards some of those swords. This is because even though he performs those tests, he still appreciates the swords as seen by the hard work he puts into restoring his swords when done with his trials using them. How do you know I will not do the same? And this is a single sword, not to multiple ones like Mr. Southern. If you wish to talk about the West's problems, that is alright, but please do not ever target someone's moral character without knowing who that person is and his/her background. You do and did not do it to Mr. Southern, a great man, so I'm asking please give me even just alittle benefit of the doubt too. NOTE: I'm alittle confused because you used the word "you" in almost all your paragraphs and then stated it wasn't me you were talking about when it seemed to me you were targeting me specifically. If you weren't, please just ignore my long rant and accept my apologies.
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Post by alvin on Mar 30, 2009 17:32:55 GMT
Well said Miekka. I believe that you made some very valid points.
I've always been of the opinion that what someone does with their own property is their business....NOT mine. As long as they aren't harming another person....big deal. Someone may not like what another does to their own property, but, on that topic, their opinion doesn't really matter or have any validity, does it?
+ 1 2 U after I recharge.
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 30, 2009 17:45:42 GMT
I agree ... I've tested a few swords to destruction myself...
What one chooses to do with ones property, or life even, may seem a waste to others , but the only choices that one has power over are their own....
So while I agree with a lot of what Brenno said about Western consumerism, I can't apply it to this situation...
Thanks for taking your time and donating your property to perform such testing, and thank you for taking the time to share it with us...
Let us each one draw our own conclusions from the results that Miekka has been kind enough to post...
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